Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
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Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
When Proof Matters More Than Bold Promises with Dr Robert Hoffman
Bold claims don’t save lives—repeatable results do. We bring Dr. Robert Hoffman back to unpack a simple experiment with big consequences: when cancer and normal cells grow together in the same dish, methionine restriction hits tumors while sparing healthy cells, but cysteine restriction knocks out both. That single design choice—testing both cell types side-by-side—exposes why some popular protocols feel persuasive yet fail the selectivity test that real patients need.
We also get practical about navigating care. Scans tell different truths: CT spots structure, PET maps metabolism, and MetPET narrows in on tumor activity, each with limits you can plan around. A negative CT can still justify a higher-resolution look; a positive CT demands clarity through MetPET or biopsy. Blood markers earn their keep in trends, not one-off numbers—monthly tracking can separate noise from signal and guide your next step with less anxiety and more insight.
From daily habits to strategic choices, we focus on what sustains life. Joe shares how unlearning old diet dogma opened the door to a low-methionine approach that’s supported by decades of research and practical tools like medical foods to maintain strength without feeding free methionine. We contrast that with the risks of cysteine restriction, which our co-culture results show is not selective and likely harmful to healthy tissue. Along the way, we talk about the 4 pm Sunday support call, the reality that evidence-based nutrition is hard, and the payoff for those who keep showing up.
If you’re deciding where to invest your energy, let data lead. Hear the experiment, understand the scans, and rethink protocols that sound right but don’t protect healthy cells. Subscribe, share this episode with someone who needs clarity, and leave a review with the biggest myth you’re ready to unlearn—your feedback helps others find a path grounded in evidence.
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Here is the link for Sunday's 4 pm Pacific time Zoom meeting
Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, Joe Grumbine. And today we have back with us Dr. Robert Hoffman. We're always glad to have you, Robert, and uh welcome back to the show. Thank you, Joe. Always glad to be here. Well, you know, I every time, you know, we have our Sunday meeting, and um you you never you never cease to amaze me with either a question you ask or an answer you have or something you throw out. It seems like you've got this wealth of information and discernment. And I just um I'm all I I I've seldom met somebody who um inspired me and and um impressed me the way you do. And I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass. This is real stuff. Well, thank you, Joe. And so this last week you shared a paper, and it's funny because, well, it's not funny, it's it's interesting. I talk to a lot of new people now. I'm I'm kind of on a mission to share what I've learned with people as much as I can, especially people that have been diagnosed with cancer. And you know, it's funny, the universe somehow seems to direct energy at you when you are are wanting or capable of doing something like that. And I have now cancer patients that I talk to two or three a week that somehow come from somewhere or another. I don't well, you're attracting them. Exactly. And the first thing I do is is I share with them, you know, my story in a real brief way that I can. And then I share with them um, you know, the information that I got from you about the diet, the enzyme, and the four o'clock call. Those are the things that I try to impart while I have their attention. And I never know if it's gonna stick. I never know if they're gonna check in or if they're gonna listen or whatever, but one by one, I I know eventually some of them will. And and I know some people are um getting a better chance to live or or live a better uh a better quality of life because of some of the things I've told them. And that's all I can do is for sure, for sure. Is tell them. But one of the things when I I I've been talking to more and more physicians as well, and um when I talk to them and I mention you, turns out there's a bunch of Dr. Hoffman's in San Diego.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah, everyone.
SPEAKER_02:Every one of them goes, Oh, yeah, I know Dr. Hoffman. I go, I don't know if you know this guy. And um they don't know me. Anyways, I I explain, I explain, you know, the kind of work you do, and I talk about the papers that you have published. And I think that that's really important. I want to talk about that today. The the the process of of publishing a paper, and I especially want to talk about the paper that you've recently published, um, your your experiment um showing the comparison of methionine restriction and cysteine restriction. And I and I want to bring a little point of reference. Um as I as I have gone down this journey of you know solving this cancer problem, I have run across so many people with so much information. And some of the people I've run into speak very confidently, and they speak as though the words that they say are scientifically proven, but most of the time they're not.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you know, in in cancer, um not a whole lot is proven, Joe. Um, you know, we're we know this direction or that direction, and we have a lot of information, but very not many things are you could say are proven.
SPEAKER_02:Agreed. But when you listen at that level. Well, when you listen to some of these people talk and some of the books that have been written, and and people will take uh they'll take an experience they had, and I think what happens more than anything is that people will create a connection, a correlation between something they did and something that happened when it doesn't necessarily belong, and they certainly didn't prove it. And then they talk about it as though it's gospel truth. And you know, when you when you talk about something confidently and emphatically, ultimately you're gonna get people to believe you.
SPEAKER_03:And well, yeah, if you say it often enough, um it kind of sticks.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and and a lot of these people had cancer, they did a bunch of things, maybe including some standard of care, maybe including some diet changes, whatever, and then maybe now they don't have it, or maybe it's in remission, or maybe it's gone, it's it's it's reduced. And they will speak about this thing they did as though it unequivocally did this other thing.
SPEAKER_03:And yeah, and there there's no logic to that. It may have or it may not have. If laboratory experiments would corroborate what they did and the result they got, that would solidify it very more more. You know, that Dr. XME always talks about the levels of evidence. Absolutely. You know, from from loose talk to phase three randomized clinical trials. And unfortunately in cancer, there's a lot of loose talk. There's these people that say they're expert, they write some book, and and then people quote from the book, well, this guy in the book said this, it must be. Um that's that's unfortunate. Um, you if something somebody did this and got that, we can't say no, that didn't happen.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_03:That's not the reason. And and we can't say yes, that's the reason. It it um it's a one-off.
SPEAKER_02:Agreed.
SPEAKER_03:It's something and you know you think we just see the same result um that adds, as Dr. Exame would say, uh to the level of evidence.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And that's good. But you'll hear a lot of oh, I read it in this guy's book, and this guy, yeah, and this guy sells a lot of books, and yeah, okay. Um that's unfortunate. These a lot of these people the soap that that claim themselves as experts are making a lot of money and they're they're making money from very vulnerable people. The cancer patient is you know, they're so vulnerable, and so many of them rightly so are so desperate. Um uh it ain't fair.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. Well, and that's one of the things that when I talk to people, I find a a decent percentage of them will tell me, well, I'm on this program or that program, and you know, as though I know all these programs, you know, I know some of them, you know, you hear about these things enough, and you're like, oh, okay. And there may be elements of it that are good, you know.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, you know, if you're no, you know, I when when you get that, I I I think it's let it be, let them be. I think it's very difficult to convince these people who think they know something that it may not be so. Right. I my I don't have the energy, and I don't think even if I had the energy, I don't think I could do it. I couldn't uh put them into a logical mode and question what they've been thinking. Um, I think these people just, oh, that's working for you. Good.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, generally I I'll I'll give them a two-minute spiel and let it go. And yeah, let it go. They don't never come back.
SPEAKER_03:Hey, you may want to come on our Zoom or but I don't think they will. Right. It's it's very interesting to me how many people we have invited to the Zoom that never came. I I what do you got to lose for an hour? I mean, agree. You know, we we say how this Zoom is so supportive of the cancer patient, and it's just uh the the patients on the zoom are so unique and and sharing the great information. And geez, I mean, did you you know, even last week, uh the the brother of the patient, Paul, such a nice and smart man, yeah, yeah. And uh, well, my sister may or may not be listening. What's that all about? I mean, right, uh, you know, I feel so sorry, you know, Paul is so dedicated to his sister and and reading scientific papers and understanding them perfectly. Yeah, and uh, well, can you say this or that? My sister may or may not be living. Where's the sister? Exactly, and and if there's so many folks like this, come on the zoom. I get I get inquiries two or three a week, whatever. Come on the zoom, right? And uh it's the rare one that that comes on, and um okay, I don't know. I is it is partly maybe the uh you know if it's not their doctors saying well, why would they contact me if there were so you know the doctor is giving them everything they want? Obviously not, but the the the percentage of people that come on the zoom when I ask them to, uh it's less than one out of ten. Oh yeah. And and of those who come on, the majority, it's a one-off, the one timer, and that's it. Um it's and you know that makes me more and more appreciative of the people who come every week, right? They're there, they're listening, they're sharing.
SPEAKER_02:Um I think there's a couple elements to it. I think one of the elements that is gonna be impossible to overcome is the things that we talk about are difficult to do.
SPEAKER_03:That's right, Joe. That's right. And and for example, at UCI, they're they're they're committed to starting this trial on lomothionine diets for the cancer patients, right? And I I'm I'm betting they haven't recruited one. Exactly. It's it's difficult, and it's it's um amazing. You have cancer and you're and you you have a hard time changing what you eat, but it seems for some people that's the case. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Do you know what when I that this is what I have to say to all of them. You know what else is difficult? Dying of cancer. Yeah, you know, it's a lot more difficult.
SPEAKER_03:It's not a it's not a nice death. No, it's a horrible death, and and yeah, and and so many can stay alive, um put their mind to it. Um okay. Uh I'm learning in my very late age, I'm learning a lot about human nature. I never could imagine. Um, but okay. Well, I'm also look at it, Joe. Everyone who comes on, or everyone we can help, it's great. Uh what does the Bible say? You save one life, you save all everybody, or you know, it's it's something like that.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and and the thing is, is I look at what we're doing like a lighthouse. There's a beacon out there that's on, and and every Sunday at four o'clock, if somebody was to remember, you know, I I always make sure I send them the link, I send them the papers, I send them the the the chart, I send them everything. I have a kind of a package that when I talk to somebody, I'm like, let me send you an email, it'll have a bunch of links to it. So I know that if for whatever reason you get that epiphany or that moment of transformation where you're like, you know what, there's something about this, I want to go check it out. That link's gonna be good. The the in I think so too.
SPEAKER_03:And no matter how many people uh don't pay attention, the people that do pay attention, uh they're a treasure to themselves and to the other folks too.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. Well, I want to talk about these these published papers because I believe you know the the case study that you published on my case has been has given me a tool that allows me to connect with especially medical um experts, physicians, practitioners, because they can't they can't refute the source when they see that it's a peer-reviewed, published.
SPEAKER_03:The pictures are like a movie of your tumor melting. Exactly. Um and that we've got the beautiful scan.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And the the issue is again, uh, you did a lot of things. We don't know which one was the most critical. Maybe they're all equally critical. We don't know. All we have is we got a good result, yes. And um, and we're hoping more people will try this, and maybe they'll get a good result too. Um exactly. Uh Dr. Ishiguro is now writing a paper about the person with uh lady with head and neck, sclamo cell carcinoma who recurred after horrible surgery. Right. Recurred terrible, and then Dr. Sato treated her with immunotherapy and she took methioninase, low methionine diet, and right now she's in remission. I love it. This is a great story. Uh, hopefully it'll come out in a couple months, two, three months, whatever. Love it. So, you know, what you you when you start getting repeats, you say, hey, wait a minute. Um, you know, we're getting the level of the level of evidence is rising. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Well, just so you know, I did get my CT scan. Um you got the results yet? Uh yeah, they said a few days, so I I we got it on Tuesday. Yeah, yeah. So it's only Thursday. Exactly. I should get it before I see Dr. Song on Monday. So okay.
SPEAKER_03:Here's my I want to give you my thinking on this. I don't know if it's correct thinking or not.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_03:Um this TV, it's gonna be positive or negative. Right. If it's negative, you can say, Well, I want to go to a higher level of resolution. I'm gonna go get the MetPet.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. If it's positive, you could say, Well, something they the the the the CT scan picked up something, but is it an active cancer?
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And maybe I should get a MetPet in that situation. I agree. Uh um, so I don't know if you can argue for the MetPet either way, and in my opinion. Um you know the CT scan is very valuable. Um the negative is very encouraging, but it's not a proof.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Uh the positive can be somewhat discouraging, but it's not necessarily bad. Right. Um and we have the next level available.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, is the MetPet the ultimate scan? No. But it's it's certainly the next level above what everybody else is getting.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and and you know, we talk about these scans and the things that they show, and they've got all different kinds of scans. You got ultrasounds, you got MRIs, you've got uh CT scans, PET CTs. Now you got the the MetPit, you got all these different types of uh instruments that register all these different things, but none of them, except for probably the MetPet, specifically identify activity from cancer cells.
SPEAKER_03:That's right, but yet even the MetPet probably has a limit of detection of a few millimeters, exactly. So, how do you deal with that? You get another one the next year or that after six months. That's I think I I agree to always understand, I think the level of what evidence, the level of evidence that the scan gives us. Right. A positive in any case is something that needs to be dealt with right away. Right. And what is it? And it may even uh necessitate a biopsy. Right. Okay, okay. We need to know the level of evidence that we're getting and then act on it.
SPEAKER_02:Agreed, agreed.
SPEAKER_03:I think also they're coming up with more and more um valuable blood tests that are the markers are good, they're not the ultimate, they don't prove anything, but they're surely informational. And the trend is really important. Oh, I got a high PSA. Okay. What are you gonna what does it look like next month? Oh, well, it's the same, and what about the month after? Well, it's the same well okay that's your baseline right it's the trend that's really important in any blood marker in my opinion uh a high level is not always necessary necessarily the a high level of the cancer but it it it certainly says it might be and some people some cancers just they don't make that marker uh there may be that they're the the cancer is so advanced that it it's losing its ability to make things and it's just all it does is grow.
SPEAKER_02:Um so we don't know but the trend and the doctors I don't know I mean if I'm a cancer patient boy I'm gonna get my marker at least every month maybe every two weeks some people are getting it every week um I get it it's so easy right well I think that that's that's I just like solving the cancer problem for each individual person it's a it's a it's an individual uh therapy like what it's a full-time occupation it is absolutely you have cancer whatever else you do in your life is secondary to what's cancer to people I go okay you know they're telling me oh we need to do this and you can do that and you can do this I go listen right now you know what I'm doing I'm staying alive and that's the thing that I spend most of my time doing and that that requires me to remember to to eat the way I eat to to make some of the things that I make um to take some of the supplements I'm taking to has priority over every other thing in life everything exactly and I go if I got any time left over I gotta try to make some money so I can pay for all this stuff and if I got any time left over from that maybe I can consider this thing you're talking about. You alright I still hear you just fine we got stuck Joe oh no you're okay on my side we got stuck can you can you hear me all right uh oh you're okay on yeah well good now Joe we the the internet had uh had a speed bump well i want to get into this study um this this last paper that you published and and the reason why is I know a lot of people that follow along a certain um line of thinking when it comes to solving the cancer problem and and they they follow along with a a group of people that that have a certain um set of protocols and one of the protocols is that cysteine which is another amino acid is equally as important to restrict um to slow the cancer down just like the methionine restriction and it makes some kind of sense if you're if you're not looking at science because they're very similar the foods that are in methione that have a lot of methionine generally have a lot of cysteine and they're related metabolically exactly so there's a lot of reason that you might think that if you if you target cysteine rather than or as well as methionine that you'll do better. But you didn't just sit there and go that makes sense so we're gonna talk to people about it and promote it. You actually laid out an experiment and and ran it. I'd like you to kind of share a little bit about that because I think it's really important. I hope the people that were on the call really got the the the gravity of what you shared I I know some of the people on the call are you know in line with this other protocol as well. And I walked away from it after a couple of weeks because it just didn't seem right and then you and I talked and some things you said just told me I didn't want to be there anymore. And but this just really cemented it for me that that you know we got to be so careful about who we're listening to and and what is the evidence that says this is what we're doing. You've got hundreds of papers that validate not only the efficacy of reducing methionine from your diet but also the safety that that there is no harm that anybody's seen from a low methionine diet except for sometimes you can get a little low in albumin and protein and you've got to balance that out. That's really the only the only thing to be mindful of and of course keeping your weight up because it's a hard diet to to to keep weight on but other than that there's there's no toxicity buildup like the you know sodium selenium and some of these other things that people are taking um so why don't you tell us a little bit about this experiment that you ran and you just published a paper on PubMed and it's been reviewed and it's and it's out there. Why don't you tell us a little bit about it?
SPEAKER_03:Okay Joe so um the best experiments are the really simple ones so this one is very simple and very direct. So we we we took a mixture an equal mixture of cancer and normal cells and we cultured them together. We call it a co-culture and the nice thing is is the cancer cells and the normal cells in this case look very different. The normal cells are elongated that there are a cut kind of cancer cell called a fibroblast fiber elongated and the cancer cells are more roundish and and and uh obviously very different in morphology. The cancer cells also were engineered to express a um a a jellyfish fluorescent protein it's very simple introduce the gene it they light up it doesn't change anything so we and then another crucial thing was to get very defined medium so we bought medium uh cell culture medium right has lots of goodies in it lots and lots of goodies in it but we got the this defined medium without methionine without cysteine okay so we can add back the cysteine we can add back the methionine we could add back both real simple minded okay we got this medium in which we can add what we want to add either the methionine or the cysteine or both or neither okay so then we cultured the we we could culture the co-cultures um with one of those media four choices so if you culture them with lots of methionine and lots of cysteine the cancer cells just overtake the culture that uh they just grow all uh on top of all over the normal cells it's very interesting you can barely see the normal cells in the co culture when there's a normal amount of methionine and a normal amount of cysteine in the medium okay that's good it shows how differently they grow okay then if you take both out Joe you try to culture them grow them without methionine and without cysteine everything dies okay how quickly did that happen was was it it takes about four days five days six days some it's it's it's a relatively short amount of time okay okay within the week let's say okay then we did our old experiment which we've been doing for 50 years and other people have even done it longer than before we culture them with um uh with with cysteine but without methionine okay and the cancer cells almost all die off and the normal cells they hang right in there maybe they don't grow quite as well but they grow they're okay take out the methionine and you and and you keep the cysteine and that's what we've been doing for decades and decades we did this in this case for a comparison okay so it's a kind of positive control so then we did the next experiment we we left the methionine in and we took out the cysteine and what did we see the cancer cells died no surprise there but so do the normal cells so can we say that cysteine restriction is a cancer specific vulnerability heck no can we say that methionine restriction is a cancer specific vulnerability yes you take out methionine you keep the cysteine in you kill off the cancer cells and the normal cells hang in there so that's a cancer specific vulnerability that the normal cells are not vulnerable but you take out you do the opposite you keep the methionine in there and you take out the cysteine you kill them both and it's ironic because to look at the literature in the most fancy of journals cell and nature and this one and that one looking at cysteine and and what it does to the cancer cells and they don't do it and and very this gene and that gene all this stuff going on and how this is a great way to target the cancer cell and blah and blah and they don't do the simple experiment on the normal cells I mean the the somebody in tenth grade would have that idea it's amazing to me um and there's a whole lot of experiments showing oh wow you do you you restrict cysteine you take cysteine out and you zap those cancer cells and wow they cancer cells need the cysteine for for redox they need it for this and that it looks like the normal cells need it the same way to be honest this was like a a high school uh science fair experiment you know I mean we have a lot of experience we did everything very carefully controlled and blah and blah and blah but the whole concept is so simple right where's everybody been and I like the the the the the the concept of a co culture for me is very cool because in the same dish under the very same conditions are the cancer cells and normal cells so it's internally controlled. Right right everything same same same same oh this dish was different than that hey no no no no no the cells are growing in the same dish same well so there you go I mean is this the ultimate experiment no somebody's gonna say well you know the normal cells you use are too sensitive I'm gonna use this oh you took away all the cysteine I'm gonna put in a little bit of cysteine and that may be so that it may be that the if you test the gradation of taking out the cysteine we might find something but we did it the same way we took out all the methionine peptacysteine and we cancer cells got zapped normal cells did quite well so in in the same way we took out all the cysteine peptomethionine and they all died so yeah there's there's a lot more experiments to do and there might be some nuance there that we missed and there's a good chance of that but to me what are we missing our time for you know we we did we we went to the extreme in both cases and we showed one was a cancer vulnerability which we knew for 60 years or something and the other one and and and cysteine not so my reaction is why for us we're not going to waste our time on cysteine right somebody else might want to show oh yeah some you didn't if you put a little cysteine in you might get some better effect okay go do it I'm not interested right because to me that that has no comparison the cysteine uh restriction has no comparison to methionine restriction I'm gonna focus my time as I have for these 50 something years on methionine restrictions now we're doing a similar experiment with glutamine I don't want to give away the story um it's been submitted for publication no it's been accepted for publication it'll come out in a couple of months and I'll have that for you so I want I don't want to tell the story now because I want you to hear podcast people to come back.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah absolutely absolutely okay you know so I I'm really I I'm really grateful that you're doing this work because you know frankly if if somebody was gonna try to experiment on themselves you could potentially get real sick or even die well yeah I'm not sure how yeah um I'm not sure really how to yeah how I guess you could invent a low you could invent a homonex type diet without cysteine. Right you would have to I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't go near it I I I don't think that um uh it's um I I don't I I don't I you know yeah I mean the the the homonex idea you know where homo comes from homocysteine right for these kids who have horrible not even homocysteinemia high in the blood but homocysteine urea high in the urine so these kids have awful homocysteine levels because they lacking a gene that produces an enzyme that lets them metabolize it and so it's live or die with this diet you take away methionine there's not going to be any homocysteine for me that uh that supplement or that that medical food has been instrumental because I've been able to you know work out more get out there in the yard and and and you know build some muscle again and I don't have to think I got to eat a whole bunch more protein I I just take more of that and I get everything I need got the other 19 amino acids everything with the methionine and um I'm building scavenge whatever methionine you have left and make all your proteins exactly and and uh and and then by doing that the the free methionine is not around there to do the damage so I think that that's when it's in the when methionine is in the protein it's a good boy exactly I think that's so key elements anyway imagine a homenex that's has no cysteine oey that's what would be toxic Joe I I get it I get it and I remember when I was talking in that other group about hominix and that was one of the things that got pointed out well it has cysteine in it and I said well yeah that's okay I I mean and I think it's a good thing next time you'll tell them it's a good thing read Hoffman's paper. I I I don't go to that group anymore I I just um I don't spend my time doing things that I don't think are productive but I I surely agree. But this I I just think this is really important and I I just want the the message in all of this is is verify your information you know check and see where's it coming from you know is there is there's a peer reviewed published report that validates even a little bit these things that you're questioning or considering doing or not doing and you only have so much time and energy I think that that's the most important thing to remember here like with all the chemo I've done you know my brain's slowly coming back but it's still I have to marshal the the the mental energy that I have the clarity that I have and and make sure I use it right. And that's one of the things that you know I I have like a uh an order of priorities and my diet is the highest in that order of priorities. And then we go down from there and there's all the other things that I do and and don't do and and um I just think that if you've got enough energy you know people are doing this and doing that and and most of the people that I talked to were on a similar diet to the one I was on prior to meeting you. And that was like a keto type diet where they're eating a bunch of protein not eating any sugar not eating any carbs not eating fruit and it's just backwards.
SPEAKER_03:And when I tried it to to to keep your your your your podcasters coming back we did the experiment with Glucose, too. We compare the colour. Okay, we'll talk about the internet. I ain't telling the result.
SPEAKER_02:They gotta well, we'll get into that because it's just so important. I think when when when we we've submitted that for publication now. Beautiful. Well, after it gets published, we'll get into it. But I just want to tell the listeners that if you get faced with a problem like cancer, it it there couldn't be a more serious problem to solve. And if you're gonna go about solving a problem, really consider number one, where you're getting your information from. And number two, this is a lesson that I got hit with really hard. I would I was a thought I was a pretty smart guy. I thought I knew a lot of stuff, and I had to unlearn half of what I knew, and it was very humbling. And I had to really accept that maybe something I thought I knew was wrong. And I really had to make that be my baseline, and then go back and relearn everything and and measure it against you know the level of evidence that was presented, and a lot of things I kept and a lot of things I had to throw away. And it was it was a very humbling experience. It's changed me forever. I think it's made me a better person. I think I'm sure. So just just if you're going through this, if you've been diagnosed, um keep your mind open. Um consider where you're getting information from.
SPEAKER_03:Consider the level of evidence.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. Well, Robert, as always, um, we get going all of a sudden we blow through the time, but this was really, really important and impactful. And I just really am grateful for all the years of work you're doing and and thank you, Joe. The diligence that you just keep on doing.
SPEAKER_03:You give me a lot of encouragement.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I'm gonna keep on doing as much as I can. Okay. Look forward to seeing you on Sunday, and then again. You bet.
SPEAKER_03:I'll be there, and I look forward to the next podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Anytime you want me, I'm all yours. Beautiful, beautiful. Well, this has been another episode of the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, and I want to thank all the listeners that make the show possible. And we will see you next time. You bet.
