Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
A podcast about practices to promote healthy lives featuring experts, businesses, and clients: we gather to share our stories about success, failure, exploration, and so much more. Our subscription episodes feature some personal and vulnerable, real-life stories that are sensitive to some of the general public.
Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
From Sacred Plant To Supreme Court: How Illegal Surveillance Threatens Everyone
A simple question with enormous consequences: can the government send someone into your home to record you without a warrant and use it to put you in prison? We sit down with longtime activist Wesley Sudberry to unpack how a cannabis case became a national referendum on surveillance, biometric rights, and the Fourth Amendment.
Wesley walks us through years behind bars, the uphill fight to get attorneys to argue statutory protections Congress already wrote, and why the Ninth Circuit’s reliance on old precedent misses the constitutional difference between being recorded in someone else’s home and being secretly recorded in your own. We also explore Hawaii’s unique privacy culture, Roger Christie’s THC Ministry, and a new push for a Biometric Privacy and Self-Ownership Act that treats your face, voice, and name as data you own—not assets for agencies or tech platforms to harvest.
This conversation widens from a single prosecution to the world we all live in: doorbell cameras, always-on mics, facial recognition on street lamps, and apps that quietly map our movements. If the Supreme Court grants review, the outcome could vacate convictions, force clearer suppression rules, and reset how law enforcement handles digital evidence. If it doesn’t, warrantless infiltration risks becoming a silent norm. Either way, knowledge is power. Hear the legal strategy, the human cost, and the road ahead—and decide where you stand on the line between security and freedom.
If this story resonates, follow the case, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review to help more people find it. Your voice helps keep privacy a public priority.
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SPEAKER_02:Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, and today I've got a couple of very special guests. We have Roger Christie and Wesley Sudberry. Now, I know many of the listeners don't know about my history as an activist and an advocate and a POW and all of this, but I've been advocating for medical cannabis for over 30 years, and I've been consuming and cultivating it for over 40 years. And um as a medicine, as a as a sacred plant, um cannabis is very high up on the list of special plants on this planet. And many of us have sacrificed or been willing to sacrifice um our life, liberty, and property um as a result of this plant and how important it is. And um Roger and Wesley have both served time in federal prison as a result. I'm gonna let them tell their story. Um, but this is uh a very important episode, and there's an upcoming, usually my topics are kind of evergreen, but this is a very uh temporal topic. Um, and there's uh an upcoming date that's real important. So, Roger Wesley, welcome to the show. I'm so glad to be able to share this time with you guys.
SPEAKER_03:Right on, thank you, Joe. Aloha Wes. Happy to be in the uh in the circle here with you both.
SPEAKER_05:Hey, and uh Roger, you're looking really young, I want to tell you.
SPEAKER_03:Cool, 76. I love it. I'm stunned.
SPEAKER_05:I thought you were like 40. That's what I was thinking.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, nice, nice. Well, yeah, a lot of credit to my wife who's a health practitioner, and uh, she cracks the whip when I reach for the Cheetos. So I love it.
SPEAKER_05:No cheating, Roger, no cheating.
SPEAKER_03:Got it. Thank you kindly. Well, I can't see you, I can see Joe, and you know, we're three prayerful people as much as I am aware of each other's personality. Joe, not you as much personally. Uh, feel your spirit and have for decades. Wesley, frontline spirit is the foundation of your being. I can easily feel it. And Joe getting to know you, I feel it as well. So that's where that's what we share. And that protect that precious foundation of our lives. I call it the operating system that runs the rest of it, um, is the basic in the First Amendment. And we all share that belief in the First Amendment right to uh raise our consciousness and our awareness with uh plant medicines and especially cannabis, what we call the tree of life. So I'm a I'm pleasure, you know, it's my pleasure to be here with you, Joe, on the podcast and your audience, aloha audience, whoever's listening to this out there. And uh Wesley, I couldn't be more proud to uh to be in association with you as uh my friend, a THC ministry member in good standing and uh and a frontline activist for good things for ourselves and especially for others. I think you b both would agree with me that our life path is is one it's uh more than we're not selfish, we're the opposite of that. We're we're you know, doing this life mission to please ourselves to help other people. That's what pleases us the most, is if we can make other people smile. So that's that's my opening.
SPEAKER_02:So very, very true. Wes, why don't you uh introduce yourself?
SPEAKER_05:Well, you know, it's uh it was amazing to meet Roger back in the day over in Hilo Bay, you know, right across the street from what was to become the THC Ministry at the Moses building. And uh it was it was a great thing because we have so much in common with what we've tried to do through our lives. And um there is hardly a person that I would actually say more about than Roger. And Joe, uh with you, it was very interesting because you know, I I met you on the phone from FDC years ago, and now we're coming to this this this place where we can actually uh um move the envelope forward a little bit with everything that has been going on with this plant, and um I I feel like I have to leave it there because otherwise there's just so much that we could say about this.
SPEAKER_02:Well, we we're we're running this show in particular for some special reasons, and why don't you without getting too into it? I know I got really good at telling the story of my case in a nutshell. Um, I got it down to just a few minutes. Uh you know, there's a six-year, six-year story. It was able to distill down to a few minutes after a while. I'm sure you're able to do that for the listeners. Um, why don't you tell us a little bit about number one, um, you know, what brought you here, and and number two, what what we have coming up.
SPEAKER_05:Well, it's it's it's really what brought me to all this is um it's really the impulse to um heal yourself and and make yourself feel better in life. And that's what brought me to all this in a nutshell right there. And um there is an important issue that has to do with uh electronics and surveillance, and so uh what's in front of the Supreme Court right now is tempered by the fact that cannabis is involved and Roger Christie and all this. But uh the base issue is whether or not it's okay for government to surveil us in in just like stare at us all the time and record it all and do all that. And so there are certain rights that were put into play into place by Congress. And so are those rights gonna be something that we continue on or just let disappear? And so I think that's a very interesting thing for our fast food nation to get used to right now, is whether they're gonna pay attention to that or just let it go on like a passing feeling.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's huge. I don't think people realize how important that is. You know, you go to other parts of the world and there's cameras every 10 feet, and everything you do is being recorded, and it's assumed you don't have a right, any other rights, you know. It's assumed that that's how it is, but it's not that way here. But they're sure pushing at it, you know, they're they're they're sneaking these cameras in. It starts out as security cameras, and the next thing you know, they're up on street lamps, and the next thing you know, you know, they're doing facial recognition, and the next thing you know, and they just keep sliding the bar forward a little bit. And I think if if nobody pushes back, and then in in your case, um they use this surveillance against you, right?
SPEAKER_05:Well, yeah, that's that's the genesis. They um what I understand, what what seems to be, and that's also in the affidavit, is that they had somebody that they paid to go and uh infiltrate Roger's home and ministry. And Hawaii is one of the it's Hawaii and Alaska. There's the the two states that have made the most stringent laws on privacy because they have it in the constitution, but despite that, because I this is what I believe is that they wanted to stop Roger from doing what he's doing. I mean, the guy ran for mayor twice. I'm pretty sure it was twice, it might have been three times, but I'm pretty sure it was twice.
SPEAKER_03:Twice on the big island, once in Denver for mayor when I was 28 years old.
SPEAKER_05:This this guy doesn't stop. You know, let's try to stop Roger. I mean, that's what's what's really funny about this whole thing is everybody's trying to stop Roger. And you know, I have a sticker right over here. It says Roger would grow. Roger would grow, you know, and that's like who gave that to me? Uh it's a Hawaiian who was looking out for me while the US government and the Hawaii government were trying to find me, and he took me in to hide me from them.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_05:And and then he hands me the sticker, Roger Woodgrow.
SPEAKER_03:Good deal. Yeah, we uh in Hawaii, there's a word called Onipa, which is steadfast. And uh I strive to live up to that, to be steadfast in my ethics, my morals, my character, my values, and my spiritual practice. So it's uh you know powerful word, yeah. It's got an attractive nature to it, and uh Wesley was attracted to what we were doing at the THC ministry because that's reflects his personal values, and he has certainly demonstrated that under the toughest of conditions, and uh yeah, we both have uh have a story to tell. And it brought us to the U.S. Supreme Court on Friday for a conference, which is a pivotal moment in time for especially every single person in the USA. Uh, as Edward Snowden revealed a few years ago, our federal government is surveilling us without warrants and unrighteously. And of course, some people define the word smartphone as self-monitoring analysis and reporting technology. And my question is, who's it reporting to or what? And uh, but anyway, regardless, this particular case applies to every single person in the USA, um, due to local police using you know techniques of surveillance without warrants and without our permission. And if I might, I don't just wind this up quickly. I have a bill, a proposed bill for the Hawaii legislature that I've already submitted to our representative. It's called the Hawaii Biometric Privacy and Self-Ownership Act. Wow. And it's modeled after Denmark. Gentlemen and listeners, please look up what Denmark is doing to copyright the name and the face of each of their citizens, you know, to give the ownership of their biometric data, their image, and their voice to the person. And because it relates to that question: who owns our body? And when we look into that uh on a deep uh dive, we find out that the birth certificate uh possibly gives ownership, literal ownership, physical ownership of our physical body to a third-party interest. Wow, yeah, that's why we can't use cannabis when one according to some people.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I it does Hawaii have a ballot initiative, or is it just you have to submit to the legislature?
SPEAKER_03:Have to submit to the legislature. Uh, whoever set this this state up that was an illegal overthrow in 1893, which is acknowledged by the U.S. Congress and the president in 1993 with what's called the Apology Bill. And I recommend people look it up. It's it's a real thing. The U.S. government officially apologized for their illegal overthrow, but the state of Hawaii, I put that in quotes, it's often called the fake state here. Um, hello. The fake state here has no ballot initiative. They didn't want we the people to have the power to guide, you know, chart our own destiny. Wow. Sounds like Kansas. How about that? Kansas, too? Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, you need to go on pause. We don't have any electricity, my fruit's getting hot. I need you at home.
SPEAKER_03:Wow, we we got an emergency. Hold on one second here, gentlemen. All right.
SPEAKER_05:Well, uh Joe, I'll talk for a minute.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so your case went from you were you were convicted or you took a plea deal?
SPEAKER_05:I no, I didn't plea out. I'm the only one who didn't plea out.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, gentlemen, excuse me. I'm gonna I have an emergency. I went home. I'm gonna have to wrap this for the time being. Wesley, you're very capable of carrying on, and I'll listen to it later. Well, thank you for joining us, Roger, and I I'll send you a link to the show as soon as we're done. Thank you. I say, may unexpected blessings and love come to everyone and from everyone right now. Agreed.
SPEAKER_02:So so, Wesley, you were convicted, sentenced, um, and then you filed an appeal. How long did it take before the appellate court um heard your case?
SPEAKER_05:It took years.
SPEAKER_02:Because you were incarcerated for years while waiting for the appellate court to hear your case.
SPEAKER_05:Um that's that's not exactly accurate. Okay, let me let clarify. So I sat in uh FTC uh waiting for an attorney to present what I was arguing to the court. And eventually that went through the appellate court and then to the Supreme Court, and then they pushed me through uh trial and that made it moved. So after that, once I was released, after that, which was um just under seven years of sitting in prison, then it moved forward eventually, but I can't get an attorney to actually I have not found one attorney that will actually argue my case for me.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. And what's their reasoning?
SPEAKER_05:Their reasoning uh is uh it's a mystery. So I could speculate on that.
SPEAKER_02:They just say no.
SPEAKER_05:Well, they have um apparent other agendas going on which stops them from actually arguing on behalf of what I'm asking for, which is that um see, look, there's one of the biggest things to take a look at is that they illegally spied on Roger Christie.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_05:But they didn't have any authorization to do that through the laws. And why are they spying on Roger Christie? Is that he a bad dude or something? Right. I don't know why. Why why would they spy on him? I mean, I do know why. And I think we all know why. Because there are certain agendas that come through, and so there was a reason to come after him. So, like, you're looking at people that aren't trying to hurt anybody that are working with plant medicine. And so this whole like like what is the problem here? Like, why does Roger or me need to be incarcerated?
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_05:I don't I don't get it. I mean, but I do get it, and and so does everybody else. You know, everybody gets it. But that's the that's the crux of it. So, like they use a legal spying to start the whole thing, which was on discrimination and bias towards a certain way of being. And so look, look look around you. You know you can't talk on your phone without something coming through that says, like, hey, we've we've listened to you and we're gonna we're gonna give you videos and everything. So this is why it's so important right now. Because uh humanity needs to understand this right now. Does that make sense, Joe?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, absolutely. I I've I have often said, you know, when they when they read you Miranda, um, that applies in all time. Anything you say can and will be used against you. And and if you're in a situation where they can capture it, that's exactly what they're gonna do. They're they're never gonna use anything that they take as far as your words or your image or um anything like that and help you with it. All they're gonna do is is use it to cause you harm.
SPEAKER_05:Well, uh, my experience, I will say, is that um there's a there's a lot of great humans out there. And some of them are in correctionals and like police departments. So like I would I would say that uh one of the things that helped me through this is the good-hearted nature of people in law enforcement. So that's I mean, that's one thing I would say.
SPEAKER_02:And and and that that is actually a saving grace. If it wasn't for a handful of decent folks that are in the same room as a handful of not so decent folks, um, we wouldn't have a chance. And and I there's been plenty of cases where I've supported where whether it was uh a law enforcement official or or a judge or a bailiff or somebody in the in the system that just looked at it and just like, what are you doing? You know, um, you know, in my case, it was the judge that overturned my my verdict when she read the transcript. She just was appalled at what happened in my trial. And and she did the right thing and overturned it. And you know, a judge of all people, you just you know, you never know where it's gonna come from.
SPEAKER_05:That's interesting. I have I have no idea, uh Joe. I just know that um you're a person concerned that uh was interested in this, but I have no idea of your personal history. That that kind of blows my mind that you went through that.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah, oh yeah. I got a whole a six-year story, but but but we're we're here about you right now, and and and in many ways your case is carries a lot more weight. Mine was a state case, and I carved a little precedent for you know state state law, but very little. You're you're in a situation where um everything that happened to you and your appeal and your ability to possibly get a ruling in your favor um could potentially affect everybody in the country.
SPEAKER_05:I I think so. And that's that's the thing, it's it's it's basic, it's it's just all about. That um, I mean, there's one thing. I mean, we all want uh dangerous people away from us.
SPEAKER_02:Of course.
SPEAKER_05:But Roger and I aren't dangerous.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely not. I I it it it it blows me away, you know. For almost 20 years, I've been supporting cannabis cases and um people going through trials and people in prison. And that's one of the that's one of the key factors in all of this. It's like, what are we thinking? You know, let's look at the quote crime. And and how do you get from however many pounds, however many plants, however many cut it up, however much oil, whatever it is, how do you get from that to somebody loses their freedom? Like the two just don't belong in the same room, and I I never could understand it. And I think the the the the ludicrous nature of these crimes are are you know what has driven me this whole time. You know, it's just how how can any of this even be? It's like we live in this alternative reality somehow.
SPEAKER_05:It is, it is, and um uh I don't know. Like I don't think most people you know have slept with the cannabis plant and lived with it like I have. And like, I mean, I I can't understand as like this this plant has a whole personality if people don't understand that. Sure, you know, it's like is and then look at your lettuce that you're eating, it has a personality too, right? That's a that's a huge thing. Like this this plant doesn't want to do anything bad to anybody, but but here we are because we have the gall to to grow it, then all this happens, right? So Roger would grow, like I was saying. Roger would grow, but um Joe, I um the main thing right now is like in the Supreme Court, it's that's just a temporary thing, it's all about whether or not it's okay for the government to illegally spy on you and then use that to convict you and throw you in jail. And so that's what's what's at hand right now.
SPEAKER_02:So they they've uh the court has agreed to hear the case.
SPEAKER_05:No, they that's we're gonna find out on Saturday.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, okay. So they're gonna be ruling on that. So uh what what happened in the appellate level? I I I didn't actually hear um really what happened there. So you finally got somebody to argue the case in front of the appellate court, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:It was a rough road to get to there, but um let me like just make it short in that um they're saying that the government can pay somebody to go into your house and purposely like set up surveillance equipment and record it, and that's okay. Wow, that's their whole argument, and they're trying to like make it hard to see, and they and it's US versus white is the Supreme Court case that they're like referring to to do that.
SPEAKER_02:And what's the case? I don't know that case at all.
SPEAKER_05:Um, it has to do with uh uh somebody wanting to buy drugs, and so they come into somebody else's house and the government has it all set up so they record them while they're there. Well, they go into somebody else's house and get recorded, and the Supreme Court ruled that that was that was good, so they keep pulling this as their whole justification. That's what the Ninth Circuit ruled, and now we're in the Supreme Court, so we'll see what they do. But um, yeah, so it like look at the difference. It's like flipping the sides of the coin. So think of instead of that you wanted to buy drugs, so you went to somebody's house and they recorded you. And and instead of that happening, someone came into your house and recorded you. Right. That's the difference. Is that okay that someone comes in? And like Roger is upfront. He has talked to all law enforcement and made it very aware that he is all for cannabis and helping to other people to have it. But then they send somebody into his house because he won 70,000 in a lawsuit against Hawaii County, and so they they used him, another person for up to five to six years to infiltrate Roger's house and record things.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_05:Without a warrant. Why to chase down cannabis? That was my other question.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So without a warrant, like you shouldn't be able to do any of that at all.
SPEAKER_05:Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, even with a warrant, there's limits to what you are able to do with with search and seizure and things like that. So that would think that surveillance would fall somewhere into that.
SPEAKER_05:Absolutely, and that's the that's the thing, is like they didn't um they knew Roger was doing it because Roger said he was doing it, like you know, that's the thing. Yeah, nobody's hiding with them hiding, right? But then they sent somebody in without a warrant to record him and get him for what? Because he advocates that the the cannabis plant has healthy benefits to us, right? That's why they did it, right? And so, and then so I have to I had to spend all that time in prison over this, you know. It's like because I'm like, I'm like, no, I'm pleading guilty, guilty to what?
SPEAKER_02:No, agreed, agreed. So, what what is your thoughts? I mean, we have a uh a unique Supreme Court sitting on right now, right?
SPEAKER_05:We do, we do. It's it's very fascinating. It is.
SPEAKER_02:And if looking at the conservative side of things, personal liberties are supposed to be part of that agenda, right? You're we're we're supposed to be have our own, you know, our own free will, and our you know, the government's not supposed to get in our way. And if you're looking at that philosophy or that that uh that political way of thinking, I don't know the way that they've ruled on a lot of different occasions, kind of all over the place. So I don't really know what to think. What what what is your uh your insight or your uh have you been uh advised uh at what kind of things you think they're gonna bring up or pay attention to, or you know, the likelihood of them moving forward?
SPEAKER_05:Well, that's an interesting thing because um Congress had an intention, and that was to uh provide certain statutes that are mandatory that bind judges to do certain things, and so they have failed to do that in this case. So, and what those statutes are talking about are specifically designated to prevent the United States government from illegally wiretapping us and recording it, and then using that against us. That's uh it's simply that because that's one of the most intrusive things that's an abomination to the Fourth Amendment, which is to be protected against unreasonable search and seizure, right? Absolutely, fruit of the poisonous tree is what it's called, and so yeah, like I mean, I'm I'm sure everyone's proud that our government busted Roger Christie and me and made us spend years in prison. I'm sure we're all proud of that. Oh, yeah, you know, because like uh I mean, geez, like uh did they dare to grow the cannabis plant.
SPEAKER_02:I get it, I get it. So that's the thing. It's interesting, is this case really isn't about cannabis at all. It's no, no, no, no, it's not, it's not, and maybe that's a good thing in the sense of it's not, you know, the good that is gonna come is gonna affect everybody, not just people that are vulnerable to this particular law, but everybody. We're all vulnerable to um our our privacy being infringed upon. We're all vulnerable of potentially being um suspected of some kind of ill doing, you know, and it only takes any one person in any in any end element of government from local to you know all the way up, uh, to to have some kind of a chip on their shoulder, a beef against you, or a suspicion that can set some of these things into motion. And you know, that sounds like there's a potential for a big roadblock to get put up if they hear this and end up ultimately ruling in your favor.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's the thing. It's like um is it's pretty uh if if they decide to hear it, uh, it'll be most likely in our favor. Like it's hard to even think of, like they won't hear it if they're not gonna rule in our favor. So like you're right.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I would think the same. It's like if they're gonna give it merit of even considering it, well then they've already considered the the the egregious nature of what what's in front of them. Now, let's just say let's take this to the best possible place, and uh, you know, in a couple of days, um, they rule that they're gonna hear the case. How long ago? How long is that likely to take? I mean, I know they got a long docket and and all of that, but are they gonna hear it this year?
SPEAKER_05:I would say maybe two years.
SPEAKER_02:Two years, okay.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, that's like I'm I'm allowing plenty of time because here's one thing that's gonna happen is that if they decide to take it, then they're gonna appoint me a SCOTUS, which is Supreme Court of the United States' SCOTUS. And so they will they will appoint me an attorney that's licensed to uh give pleadings in front of the Supreme Court, right? And so this attorney um is not gonna know what I'm even talking about, right? So they they were gonna have they're gonna have to study it, and then then they're gonna have to present pleadings based off of what they learned. But um I'll tell you, like, almost no attorney or judge, and I've tested this in court, I've asked judges, like, do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Do you know USC 3504? And the judge said, No, I don't know what that is. I'm like, well, then how are you capable to even judge this? Right, and that's what I said to a judge in court. I have said that, and they don't know it. So that's the thing is that the Supreme Court knows it, they've been dealing with it. It's United States versus Gilbert, it's the Supreme Court case, and it is it's landmarked, and so like that's what we're trying to do right now is present another landmark case where now the Supreme Court has the option to make sure that we are not legally spied upon, and that actually goes into now all the new technology and the AI and everything. Like, we're like, I mean, we all know it's like we say one thing, and then all of a sudden there's a video that uh shows up that all based off of what we said, right? So we know we're getting surveilled like crazy, sure, but what is that? And so that's where we as the people have power through the legislation, the legislators, right? The that's the house of representatives and the senators, because we elect them and we're saying, hey, do our will, and that's that's our supposed to happen, yeah exactly, and so that's that's that's where we're sitting here, and so I mean, who knows right now, with all that is if they do agree to hear it that yeah, two years this court will likely not have changed much.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe one justice will be different, but probably it'll be pretty similar to what it is.
SPEAKER_05:So um well for good or I'm saying two years like like I I'm I'm being like I'm giving like the the big amount, like hopefully it won't take that two years.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah, hopefully it it's it's in this year, but but I I get it. We gotta be reasonable and and and uh conservative. Okay, so let's take it to the to the best place. Uh a year and a half goes by, they hear the case, they rule in your favor. Now what happens?
SPEAKER_05:Well, it it changes the way um defense attorneys are gonna work because it is is cementing in a particular way that we have a right to ask. Like you're accusing me of certain things. Where did you get the evidence? And did you illegally surveillance? That's like that's I mean, it sounds funny because people want to say that, like, hey, if you're not doing anything wrong, you should be if somebody's watching.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, I know. I trust me, I've I've caught that. I don't know if you weren't doing anything wrong, you wouldn't have any problems. It's like, okay, I don't know what world you live in, but it's certainly not the one I'm in.
SPEAKER_05:No, I've I've had to face up to they tried to get me all kinds of ways in jail, and I ended up being able to uh luckily walk through that without having them apply more punishment to me. But they tried to, and that's the thing is like, okay, so that's fine. Like, hey, if you're not doing anything wrong, then don't worry about it. Of course, everybody can watch.
SPEAKER_02:Right now, if they were to rule again in your favor, now if they if if they don't hear the case, which unfortunately is the most likely thing to happen because they hear generally a fraction of the case less than one percent, yeah. Right. So, but I mean, I I'm all about let's let's go all the way where it needs to go, and they hear the case, it it they rule in your favor. Does that affect your case directly, or is the ruling gonna affect future cases only?
SPEAKER_05:No, it affects uh it affects a lot, you know, because um say if they rule in my favor, they would vacate my conviction. That's what I'm talking about, and then there's Roger Christie, yeah. Roger Christie and all the other co-defendants, because they would be able to like have their conviction vacated now, right? And then also uh it it creates a problem because it would dishonor the judge, which is Leslie Kobiyashi, because she would look she would look very bad if that was to happen. And so, yeah, it's it's huge. She's an Obama-appointed judge, and so that would like. I mean, uh, I've battled with her in court over and over. So me and her are fairly intimate, you might say.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:But like, I mean, I think she doesn't want to like she does not want me to speak in court. My attorney would like always like try to tap me to speak in court because he didn't want to have to say what was supposed to be said, so he would give it to me to say it. Wow, and because, like, you know, he's being intimidated because he can be sanctioned. And that's the way defense attorneys work in this country. It's like the defense attorneys, like I hope people hear this part specifically.
unknown:Sure.
SPEAKER_05:Defense attorneys are handicapped to stand up for you in a court of law.
SPEAKER_02:Huge.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, they will be punished if they stand up for you. That's why my that's why I can thank my attorney that I finally found he was like my seventh attorney, seven years, seven attorneys.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_05:Like he he was he would always be like the judge would scare him, and he's like, Hey, I'm pretty sure Mr. Sudbury wants something to say. And so then I would say it instead of my attorney. And that's how it goes. So that's the that's what is really at hand for everybody is like, hey, like I grew a plant that's a good plant that we're we're still struggling right now to figure out like how good is this plant? Like, I don't know how good this plant is, right? And so we're trying to bring it back, and that that was what I did wrong. Is like give this plant water and food. That's what I did wrong. Well, I probably should never have done that.
SPEAKER_02:I I deeply admire your courage and your willingness to uh do what's right. I I was in the same situation. Fortunately, you know, mine was a state case, not a federal case, but um it was you know similar in a lot of ways. And um so few people are willing to stand up without pleading out, and um, you know, that's where you can make changes. And so you're you're in a situation where because of um what you were willing to do, what you had to go through, um, you're in a situation now where you have the ability to move the move the mark forward and you know potentially affect hundreds, maybe thousands of cases. And it's especially cases in the future. There might be a thousand cases in in process right now, pretrial or even in trial, where um this type of surveillance um is the primary, you know. Evidence against the defendant. And if this does what it could and should do, um, all those cases are gonna get thrown out. So I am again proud of you. Um, I stand in full solidarity and I'm looking forward to uh hearing the news about what happens. I uh we're gonna publish this right away so more people can become aware. Um why don't you share again the the the name of the case so that if somebody wants to look it up they can they can at least um become more familiar with it.
SPEAKER_05:Is is Sudbury versus United States.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_05:Well go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:No, I I just wanted uh to thank you. Go ahead and finish your thought though. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05:Well, um just to every everyday people out there. I don't know. Is it cool if somebody's watching you in your bathroom? That's what this is about. Well, I'm gonna say it's not okay. Everybody else. It's not okay for the government to do that. No, and like like this is this case is unique because like what did we do? I don't know. We we put we put a plant in the ground and grew it, right? So that's what we did. Um thank god big brothers like spying and like making sure we don't do that, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the world's a better place.
SPEAKER_05:This is a serious crime. This is a serious crime we did, right? Putting that plant in the ground. What we were telling him, and I went with Roger and met with the the local law enforcement and everybody and told them we were doing it. So, like, this is all about that, but then they still illegally spied. So, what are they doing to you? And I'm talking to everyday American out there is like, what are we gonna allow our government to do? Because, like, that is an important thing for everybody to realize. That's our duty. Do you think you have like what you're a United States citizen, you have rights and duties. So, our duty is to make sure our government doesn't do this. So, who else is gonna do it? But us. We have to hold our government accountable. And that's like like I said, like go ahead. Like what you're are you all mad at me? You I do I have to do some more years in prison because I grew the cannabis plant? No, you know, is like that's what this is about. So let's let's stand up and let everybody know that that's this is just not okay for our government to illegally spy on us.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I couldn't agree with you more, and um, I definitely would love to have you come back um after they've ruled, and hopefully we'll have some good news to talk about. Um, you know, one good thing is when you get into the higher courts and you get an appointed attorney, um, they tend to be of a much higher caliber. I know in my case, when it went to the appellate court, um, my appellate attorney was much better than the public defender I ended up with. So um I I know that um they they tend to have a dog in the fight in the sense of if they if they win, they become part of case law and their name gets you know put up for all time eternal until it gets overturned. So um they've got a reason to get out there and do a good job for you.
SPEAKER_05:I I think so too, and I'm optimistic because um there's a reason why the Supreme Court takes cases, yeah, and we hit we hit it on every aspect. So uh in my opinion, they should take this case. And if they don't, uh I will actually reapply it to them and keep uh asking them to hear it. So uh yeah, so like yeah, there's good things to happen with this, but you know, the biggest thing that I know that I want to turn to is just like yeah, humanity. I just want to smile because it's like hey, we we have some good things to do right now, but we have an interesting time to go through. And so we're like, I give thanks and you know appreciation to like all of us out there that are going through our individual journeys, and I hope that what I've done helps you on your journey some way. Except for that, I don't want you to be in court and be pursued by clops.
SPEAKER_02:So that's the beauty when when one person does go through it, um, you have the ability to keep a whole lot of other people from having to go through it. And and maybe as as important or more importantly, um you're you're doing something that most people don't have the wherewithal or the you know the strength, the stamina, the courage to do. And uh yet it will affect all these people, all of us. So I again um applaud your effort. I'm I support you in all ways, and um I'm looking forward to hearing some good news about it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah, that's the thing, is like it will kill your life. I know that's one thing I have to like do every day, is that I could have been something else in a way.
SPEAKER_02:But now, do you want to uh give your contact information out to the listeners if somebody wants to get a hold of you? You have that ability if you want to.
SPEAKER_05:Well, I would say if if they're interested that much, all they have to do is go look at the docket number. Okay, and then my contact information is there. So if if they want to go do that, they can do that. Perfect, and um, yeah, so otherwise, like uh, you know, I wish everybody the best when it comes to all this because heck it's a heck of a world out there right now we're done with. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:I do. Well, West.
SPEAKER_05:Never mind.
SPEAKER_02:I can't I can't do this on the podcast, but well, I I appreciate you joining me today, and I I welcome you to come back to to continue the conversation as as time allows. And um, you know, I I I applaud your work and I I give you my full support.
SPEAKER_05:Thank you, Joe. And uh I I wish you well in the challenges you're going through. And um I my I guess my only regret is that it's taking this much time, but hey, that's what we have is time.
SPEAKER_02:That's it, exactly. All right. Well, Wes, uh this has been a uh a treat. I look forward to uh continuing the conversation. And to the listeners, this has been another episode of the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, and I want to thank all the listeners that have made this show possible, and we will see you next time.
