Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
A podcast about practices to promote healthy lives featuring experts, businesses, and clients: we gather to share our stories about success, failure, exploration, and so much more. Our subscription episodes feature some personal and vulnerable, real-life stories that are sensitive to some of the general public.
Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
A Peer-Reviewed Paper Turned One Patient’s Cancer Reversal Into Evidence with Dr Robert Hoffman
A tumor melting on camera, a radiology scan to match, and a paper that moved from submission to PubMed faster than we expected—this is the story of how careful documentation turned a personal win into shared evidence. We walk through the case report step by step: how we assembled photos, methods, results, and discussion without overstating what a single case can prove, and why that restraint makes it more valuable to patients and clinicians deciding what to try next.
The heart of our conversation is strategy and sequence. Facing an aggressive head and neck cancer, we chose chemo first and paired it with a low methionine approach and methioninase, aiming to weaken the tumor before considering radiation or extensive surgery. That choice wasn’t about rejecting standards; it was about minimizing irreversible harm while monitoring labs tightly to stay safe. We also dig into the science that sets methionine targeting apart from the hype around cysteine restriction and ferroptosis, highlighting early evidence that cysteine restriction can harm healthy cells as much as tumors—exactly the tradeoff we work to avoid.
We also pull back the curtain on PubMed: how journal credibility works, why impact factors don’t tell the whole story, and how to read beyond headlines to find methods and outcomes that actually apply to you. Along the way, we spotlight real patient wins from our community and the power of weekly check-ins, detailed bloodwork, and a diet that’s practical, sustainable, and supportive through treatment. This is a field note from the front lines of evidence-based hope: honest about limits, focused on safety, and relentless about results.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with someone weighing cancer decisions, and leave a review to help others find it. Your questions and stories shape what we dig into next.
Intro for podcast
information about subscriptions
Here is the link for Sunday's 4 pm Pacific time Zoom meeting
Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, and today we have back Dr. Robert Hoffman. And uh we're always excited to talk to you, Robert. Welcome to the show. Nice to be here, Joe, always. So we had a big week this week. We had a kind of a milestone that we hit, and um, you know, we talk a lot about information and um you know where you're getting it from. And I don't know how many times I've heard people present something to you, and your response is usually show me the published paper. And um, well, uh now I can say, here you go. So um you've been working on this case study of my case for a couple of months now, gathering all the intel, the pictures, the reports.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's all you you sent that wonderful set of photos that showed your tumor melting away day by day, and you sent the very nice um uh MRI or CT.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And and you you and your whole team was able to uh put that together and uh create a narrative of what we did, the protocol, and um just the the whole the whole strategy that we had. Why don't you kind of walk us through how you guys assemble all that? You know, I mean it seems like when when you read the thing, it looks like wow, that'd be easy to do, but I know it has to be done in a particular way with a particular format and a particular uh type of information put in a specific way, and you guys know how to do that pretty well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh it wasn't very hard, Joe, because the results were so good. Basically, uh with the kind of results that you gave us, it was a piece of cake. Um it's hard to write something up when you have a marginal result. You know, what am I talking about? Yeah, maybe hedge here, hedge there. No hedge in here. So we had two figures, the multi-paneled figure of about 30 of your pictures.
SPEAKER_00:Right?
SPEAKER_01:It's you took. Thank God you did that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And the tumor just melting away. It's just unbelievable. And uh then you got the you we we you helped me and you gave to me the the beautiful scan. We put that in, and everything just fell in pace. You know, basically a paper has a title, an abstract, an intro, the methods, the results, and a discussion and references. And in this case, it was it was easy. Um we had to wait a little while because you get in line. You know, we send it in, they re it was re peer reviewed, okay, accepted, and finally they they send some proofs, you look at them, you check them, and I'm a real stickler. I went through about five proof uh rounds with them. They they hate me for it, but I try to get things you know best I can. And uh then uh you were lined up for uh the November issue, and here we are. So and it's out, it's out, and that journal has a really good path to PubMed. Not all journals do, right? Right, and they were on almost immediately, even in the shutdown. There's some angel taking care of PubMed. It's a government website. I don't know who's taking care of it, but somebody's taking care of it.
SPEAKER_00:I was surprised because I know when you uh sent me the article from the journal, uh, we talked about PubMed, and you were saying, well, it might be a while because you know the and it went on that very evening, right? Right, and the next morning, boom, here we are. So we are, yeah. In this case, like the whole world sees it now, Joe. I love it, I love it. Well, I've already shared it with a number of physicians and um um and a number of people that you know I I I know that they're kind of watching what I do, but you know, I'm just a layman. I don't have that that degree of of you know expertise to say, well, this nobody does show.
SPEAKER_01:We can't all we can know from this paper is that you got better, right? Uh was it the chemo itself or was it the chemo along with the methionase? Well, our hypothesis is it was the combo, but we can't prove it, and we don't care, yeah. And we're not even trying to. Uh in in some cases, even if we tried, we couldn't do it.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:It's not a clinical trial, it's a case report. And in the journal's table of contents, it was listed under case reports right about that. And um, so that's what it is, it's a case report, right? People can say whatever they want, I don't care. Right. Well, what we care about is that you're all better.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah. That's and that is uh objective number one. You know, that was what this was all about to meet. And it it was a really unexpected result, right?
SPEAKER_01:And that lends you to think your hypothesis that it was the combination, it may have a good chance of being correct. Um, we'll never know. Well, I don't want to go back and find out a second time. I'll tell you that we don't get those kind of responses very often.
SPEAKER_00:Well, especially with this cancer that I had, it's uh generally a very aggressive irradiate you to hell, yeah. Yeah, and and I would have been, you know, I went back and I looked at the um at the original uh records of the uh radio oncologist, and his notes were very clear about how he had discussed with me all of the potential negative side effects, and you know, including getting a G2 put in and uh you know losing weight and not being able to eat, not being able to swallow, um, salivary glands falling apart, um, vertebrae collapsing, um, teeth falling out. I mean, and the list goes on and on and on of not just potential but likely side effects. Because, you know, your neck is a is a high traffic area. There's everything going on in your neck. You got bones, you got muscle, you got nerves, you got arteries, you got veins, you got, I mean, everything is going through there. You got your lymphatic.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, just and all your food goes down it, and all the air goes down it.
SPEAKER_00:Right, everything you need, and yeah, not only that, but stones throw away from your brain, a stones throw away from your lungs, like yeah, it's really not the place you want to be blowing up with radiation. No, and they were more than glad to do it, and um well that's their that's their main guideline, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's what they've been taught to do, that's what they're paid to do, right? Uh that they think that's the best, and um we just went with logic. Well, can't we try the chemo first? Right. Can we see that if we need the radiation, we'll get it?
SPEAKER_00:Can we try the chemo, please? It just makes sense. Like, you know, the Hippocratic Oath is supposed to include this sort of, I don't know, pretty important phrase about harming none, right?
SPEAKER_01:Isn't that the the the first rule the Hippocratic oath is do no harm?
SPEAKER_00:Right, that's the first principle, and and and you would think that would be pretty high on the list of like, well, you know, we have this choice of things we could do. Let's start with the thing that will harm the least and work our way up.
SPEAKER_01:They don't I think they don't think that way. Their guidelines say this is the best chance, right? And they say if we don't give you the best chance, we're not doing right by you. Right. That's what they think. Yeah, that's what they're taught. Maybe that's their experience. I don't know. Um it it's they don't want to harm you. No, no, they don't they they want you to get better, um, but that's all they know, right? That's all they know, and you're a chemo doc. Uh thank god she was open-minded enough to just give you chemo.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and then you kind of use that up and and went to Dr. Song and got one of the greatest in the world.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my goodness, I I I am just so tickled that um, you know, there's just in my opinion, there's been a series of miracles that have taken place through this. And you know, a miracle is generally the result of a lot of hard work and and you know, doing everything you can and thinking the right thoughts and everything put together, but call it whatever you want. But just the fact that you know, when this thing was growing and I I couldn't get the dental clearance because I didn't know better. Remember, in the beginning, I was gonna go forward with everything they were requesting because I had to do something. And when I couldn't get the dental clearance, that was the first sort of I don't know, that was that was good luck. It was the best thing could have happened because it it slowed down my ability to get anything done. And at that point, the tumor was growing pretty dramatically, in spite of the diet, the methionase, all the other things I was doing.
SPEAKER_01:It was they just weren't powerful enough for that kind of tumor.
SPEAKER_00:It had it has to be the combination. It had already dug in and and uh it had already built a superhighway, it had its uh you know, blood system in place, it was it knew what knew what it was doing, and it was growing like crazy. I remember when they stuck that camera down my nose, and I looked at that thing in the back of my tongue, and I saw it. I still can close my eyes and and see that thing, and it was like uh, if you could describe it, it looked scaly, but the scales were slimy, and it was just like I could see the thing almost breathing, you know. It was like it was it was staying alive, it was growing, it was it was probably the most lively tissue in your body. Oh man, yeah, you could just look at it, it almost like breathed at me, you know, and that just got my attention like nobody's business. I mean, it wasn't bad enough. I had a grapefruit sticking out of my neck, but when you look that thing in the eye, whoo! I tell you what, it it it really um it focused my attention to the point that you know we started talking more and more, and um, you know, you you suggested this neo-adjuvant solution, and you know, it it kind of blows me away that the doctors don't always go after a neo-adjuvant solution. Like the more research is not their guidelines, I know, but the more research you do on surgery, it's the most likely route to cause you problems in the future because the likelihood of them getting everything, even if they do like uh it's almost zero, no matter what they say, right? Because they can't see it, they can only see the part they can see, and yeah, you know, they they go after like sometimes on a skinned one where they keep cutting off a piece and then they look at it under the microscope and they cut off another piece.
SPEAKER_01:I guess they have a chance of taking that out that way because you can yeah, I had that on my ear 21 years ago and it never came back, right? And that's exactly what they did, right?
SPEAKER_00:And and but you can't do that inside. Nope. You can only do that on the outside.
SPEAKER_01:So when you got it, I was in the doctor's chair and we'd go to the microscope together, see how we're doing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I can I can understand that to me. That surgery is a viable solution, and you know, for anybody who has a skin lesion or some type of uh precancerous growth.
SPEAKER_01:Oh Joe, they would have taken out part of your jaw, they would have taken out the back of your tongue.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god, what they would have done.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and I've seen so many images of people that have had surgery that was not even nearly as bad as mine to start with. You know, they showed a tumor that was like how mine was a year and a half ago, and and you know, a fraction of the size, and they still leave these gaping holes and taking out pieces of bone and taking out, you know, it would take out a part of your tongue, no question. Yeah. And you know, for me, I a big part of my life is talking, you know. I do this podcast, I teach people, I I I am I'm I use my voice as part of my way of life and my living. It would have probably affected my voice to the point where I would not have been able to do the thing.
SPEAKER_01:You couldn't use your mouth properly, probably for months. I can't imagine how you would eat.
SPEAKER_00:Right, exactly. And and and that's not even getting into the the salivary glands, and you know, I I keep looking at these um, you know, this group that I'm in, and the constant complaints of you know, the my my saliva is like paste, and I can't even swallow at all. Um, you know, I'm I'm I'm I've lost you know 40 pounds and and I I can't, you know, I can't keep any weight on, even with the you know, the G tube. And and and and then people come back, and here's the part that really gets me. I don't know how many times I've seen, you know, six months, a year, two years after a surgery, and even the radiation, and then they'll come back and say, it showed up in my lungs, it showed up in my lymph nodes, it showed up somewhere else, and now we got to start all over again. And they already went through this grueling hell of weeks or months of of this torturous treatment, and then they're looking at maybe doing it all over again. I couldn't even imagine. So when when it comes to publishing an article on a peer-reviewed periodical and then submitting it to PubMed, where it's like a clearinghouse of all these different articles, there are different categories of of papers that are that are published. And I've seen clinical trials, I've seen um, you know, case studies, I've seen, why don't you tell us a little bit about the types of information that's published and maybe the standards that are held, you know, to this. Because when you look at something in a in a site like PubMed, you go, well, I I give that way more credence than I do the guys' you know website or the blog or whatever else things are published on.
SPEAKER_01:Well, PubMed has really democratized science. Uh it's a free website. It's got over 41 million scientific publications on it. Um the abstract of all of them are free. The full paper of a good percentage of them are free. Um every kind of study you can imagine is there. They don't there's no criteria for the type of study. They don't let every journal on. They have to the journal has to pass some credibility tests to get listed by PubMed. There's some journals that are not listed by PubMed, and I avoid them. Some of them I maybe like a little bit, but no way. And some of the fancy journals have these what so-called very big impact factor numbers. Uh that means how often they get cited. And some of the journals on PubMed have a very small impact number, but you can't tell that on PubMed. It's very democratic. So the fanciest nature paper is listed right alongside the r the you know, the journals that are not so fancy. And um I'm very grateful for the journal we published in. We published there a lot. It's so open-minded. Um they want to publish things that are good for science and not to promote their journal, get more citations, whatever, whatever. No, they want to have good science. So PubMed is very democratic. Um, you can't by the list, you don't know which is the high impact journal, fancy fancy, cost ten thousand dollars to publish in.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Or the little guy that publishes a lot of good stuff. All on the same list.
SPEAKER_00:You have been very prolific with your uh articles that have been published, and um I have looked at a number of them, but there's you published twenty-three papers just this year alone, according to what I'm looking at. And there's a a a wide variety of of papers that you're publishing, and they go, it looks like a lot of them are um experiments, and you've got this amazing team of people, and it it's not always the same team on every no, some of it's collaboration, Joe.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right. We have groups with our group with another group. We have that too.
SPEAKER_00:And and so tell me about, you know, a lot of these, I I they look like they're they're an experiment or a study on a um, you know, not not somebody's case study, but um and but in some cases they are. I mean, you're looking at um breast cancer, you're looking at pancreatic cancer, but some of these are in animals. You've got micro.
SPEAKER_01:Some of them are just in the dish. So, what we've been trying to do the last couple years is try to find the best synergy of chemo and methioninase, and we've done this in a number of different ways to show what especially we want to see what's synergistic with methioninase and different kinds of chemo that affect the cancer cell but are not synergistic and have a minimal effect on the normal cell. And a lot of people don't do that, I don't understand it. Oh, this kills the cancer, and that kills the cancer, and here's the best way to kill the cancer. Well, did you try it on the normal cells?
SPEAKER_00:Right, right.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. I mean, you know, I think the kid in fourth grade might ask that question.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Maybe third grade. You can kill a cancer cell pretty easy, just put a little bleach on it.
SPEAKER_01:That's all you need to do. It'll die, but put that I mean the during the COVID, the president was ready to inject himself with Clorox.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, I remember.
SPEAKER_01:I remember. Um, so uh yeah, the the idea is, and the difficulty is how do you kill the cancer cell without killing the patient? This is what it's all about.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and just recently you did a study um with uh what was it, cysteine and um methionine kind of side by side, and you restricted the cysteine and we haven't published that. That's gonna come out soon, Joe. I'll I'll keep quiet on that one then.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, you don't have to keep quiet on it. It it turns out when you restrict cysteine, it's not a cancer-specific vulnerability.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:You zap the normal cells the same as you zap the cancer cells. When you restrict methionine, you zap the cancer cells, and the normal cells hang in there.
SPEAKER_00:And and I mean, like you said, I can't think of a more important factor. And and there are people out there talking about cysteine restriction.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, up the yin yang, cysteine, cysteine, cysteine, feroptosis, cysteine, cysteine. Uh it it the that's one of the most popular things now. And I say, hey fellas, what happens on the normal cells? Right. And that's uh our our young scientist, uh, Utah from he said he hasn't even been here a year from Japan yet. Right. About and did it. Yep. You this you take away cysteine, you zap the cancer cells, yay! You take away cysteine, you zap the can the normal cells, boo right.
SPEAKER_00:And so the reality is, and I think we have one of the members of our group that maybe has been a victim of this to some degree, probably it's more complicated than that, but um, when you're going after, you know, this cysteine restriction by whatever means, maybe it's using a selenium compound or or going after this feroptosis um reaction, and the goal of that in large amount is to remove the cysteine from your diet um and and remove it just like methioninase does, takes out the methionine. Well, when you have somebody like Gabriella who who is compromised already, and she's going through trying to solve her problem, and she's working with this system of compounds and diet and all the different things she was doing to try to you know remove the cysteine. I can't help but wonder with the complications she's had, that maybe that didn't make things worse for her.
SPEAKER_01:It may have. The thing I worry most, it may have. The thing I worry most about her, she's not getting chemo. The doctor said, Oh, the window of treatment is closed. Can you imagine a doctor saying that? No, I would say give it to me anyways. Let's find out. Um, she needs another doctor, and yeah, it seems like she's all by herself. There's nobody kind of advising her or what I don't, I don't I don't really know her situation. And Dr. Xame keeps giving her good advice on the Zoom meeting, and she doesn't seem to understand it. I don't know. I I it I feel it it's her situation, she needs help.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I agree. I think I've talked to her on the side several times, and uh, you know, I told her anytime she can get a word with Dr. Exame that you know she should take heed. I mean, he's been between you and him, um, before Dr. Sung, I was getting a lot of good guidance that helped me in in my own research, and you know, spending time in here and not over there, because you guys already had experience with some of the things I was looking at, and it was instrumental and not wasting my time. You know, Dr. Exume's and yours, both of your thought is well, you you've got always many choices, but you can rule out some things pretty quickly, and you can decide where to spend your time pretty quickly as far as what's most likely to do the most good and the least amount of harm. I think if you start weighing options out that way prior to just you know trying things, but you know, when you have cancer, most people that I run into are just almost frantic. And and you know, they get hit, we get we get hit with this information that says this thing that you now are aware of, you've had it probably for a long time, but you're now aware of it. And if you don't take some pretty dramatic uh action, it's gonna get worse and eventually overcome you. And so when you have to reckon with that, a lot of times, and then we live in this crazy world where information's everywhere, and a lot of it's terrible information, and some of it's good. Well, Dr.
SPEAKER_01:Xame always says, What's what's the evidence base? Right, you know, it one degree of evidence, two degrees, three degrees. He g he rates the the evidence. Yes, you know, I mean that's what helped me uh you know, a five-degree uh he rates the evidence, and then you should be able to make a decision based on the rating of of how much evidence you got. You know, when you're in the court of law and the jury's in there, uh you hit you get you're trying to convict somebody on hearsay, right? It's pretty tough. Yeah, but when you got the smoking gun, right, you know, the jury can vote. And so the same with the cancer treatment. If you have a high degree of evidence to what you should try to do, there's a good chance that that might help you.
SPEAKER_00:And at least start there and put your energy to there until you've exhausted that or have you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and people it it it Dr. X-May put it to me. He comes, visits us about once or twice a month. It's always a great education for me. Sit down with him.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, um, I'm looking forward to sitting with him one time, but every time.
SPEAKER_01:Oh boy, it's always things no school could be like that. Yeah, and uh he's saying, you know, some people just get so hooked on one uh anecdotal result. Oh, somebody took divermectin and they're cancer free. Right, even if that's true, which I doubt, I I say, yeah, there's a guy that fell out the seventh floor and he survived too. You want to try? Right.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And and you know, correlation and causation are seldom real connected, like there's a lot of things that happen, and another thing happens, and another thing happens, and this other thing happened that those other first things didn't cause.
SPEAKER_01:But well, it's hard to know. It's hard to know, and in cancer, nothing's nothing's absolute, nothing at all. Right. Um so we need to make informed decisions. I couldn't think of a better way than being on our Zoom, right?
SPEAKER_00:Um we need to for the listeners that are new to this podcast, every Sunday at 4 p.m. Pacific time, we have A Zoom meeting, and this is a group of people from around the world who have used these principles of a low methionine diet and methionine A's and some other form of therapy.
SPEAKER_01:And most of the successful patients have taken first-line chemo as well. The standard is great therapy that we try to make work better.
SPEAKER_00:And it's it's always a combination of things, and everybody's cancers are unique. And that's a big part of the message with this podcast is don't do what I did, but learn the way I learned. Yeah, that's where very well put, Joe. Yeah, and and find out for yourself what you need. And my guess is that the things that I did will probably help you, but you might need to do some things different. You might need a different chemo drug, or you might need to add more of something or less of something. But but learn your own problem and learn it as well as you can, and then take the time to start with the beginning. That lumathion diet, as far as I know, will help everybody who has cancer. Like, unless everybody should be on it.
SPEAKER_01:That's a basic. Yes, surely a basic. I mean, that's basically known since 1959. Um that's a no-brainer. Then you start from there and then you go to the next step and the next and the next. Exactly. But being on a low methionine diet, there's no downside as long as you just concentrate a little bit and keep your calories okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um and frankly, even if you that's a that's a basic, it would be a good healthy diet. I think most people oh, it's a real life-lengthening diet, right? Right. And it and it takes some things, some principles that people, you know, think about, even vegans, you know, they're everybody's so concerned about protein, protein, protein. But unless you're a major bodybuilder or a fireman or somebody that is just working out like hardcore all the time, you probably are consuming way more protein than you need.
SPEAKER_01:And Joe, it's not better for you. You've probably seen some bulls, haven't you? Sure. That's all from grass, right?
SPEAKER_00:Or a gorilla. Or a gorilla. You know, you want to think about a strong animal, you know, they talk about the strength of a gorilla, you know, and they eat fruit. They eat fruit, you know, fruit and leaves, and and you know, like you said, a bull, a horse. You know, you ever ridden a horse and the power and the the strength and the muscles in that horse? And that horse eats what? Alfalfa and hay and grass. And yeah, it's got a digestive system that processes it a little better than what we do. But we don't have to eat hay and grass. We can eat fruits and vegetables and and all sorts of more complex foods that don't necessarily have a ton of protein in them. And we can build the same muscles, the same organs, the same everything, and and have this level of health that, you know, in my opinion, for me, the most important piece was that it weakened the cancer and it made it susceptible. You bet.
SPEAKER_01:And Joe, you know, this you're worried about your protein? Okay. Ask in your blood test total protein, albumin, pre-albumin, you can measure all that stuff. Oh, yeah. And mine's checking. It's not working, you know, we're not flying blind here. Oh, yeah, what was your number? What's your blood test say?
SPEAKER_00:And generally mine shows up low, but it's just a little bit low. Yeah. I look at the threshold, and you know, as long as my uh immune system is responding and everything else. Yeah, and and you're not getting you're not getting anemic. Right. And I'm not having you know, side effects that are because of the low protein and low albumin, then I'm okay. Like the the markers that they have, even that is a range. Like you they don't know what your idea is. It's a range, it's a range. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And you know, get your numbers every month. What what the heck?
SPEAKER_00:It's so logical. That has been one of Dr. Song's most um notable actions is that every time I see him, even if I go just for a checkup, he pulls blood and he evaluates it every single time. And I have probably I don't know, 20 sets of blood panels that I can go back and look at, and I can see, you know, this sort of cycle of where I was, I know what I've been doing with my diet, with my appetite, with the chemo effects, and I can say, well, even in the worst, worst, worst, or when I was fasting prior to the chemo, I still maintained a level that was acceptable. And, you know, the hominex, the the medical food, that's been instrumental in that because I know I can take that and I can get all these amino hominx is just great. Yeah, it's been a big part of my journey in that yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it's got 19 amino acids, everything except methionine, right?
SPEAKER_00:Um, tons of calories, right?
SPEAKER_01:And vitamins, minerals, all of it. Um, the kids, the kids who have those gen genetic diseases where they uh build up the homocysteine to enormous levels because they can't process methionine, right? Right. They they have to eat that all their life.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and they can do it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, I totally agree. I I I just know, and it's it's funny because I sent that article to a couple of doctors and a couple of people that work with doctors on a pretty high level. And the insight that these people had, they said, Wow, you're able to help a lot of people with this information. And they understood the value of this work. All these papers that you publish, it's not just to whatever, get your name out there, it's not just to say, look what I did, but we're developing an understanding of a thing that's going to save lives, that does save lives. And eventually, I believe that with the people like me and Scott and you and Dave and all these people that are and Shahiro and and and people that are sharing our stories and and and living it and and demonstrating the value, I think it's going to keep growing. That that the it's growing, Joe. There's no question it's growing. Yeah. And and that's good. And and that paradigm is shifting. It's not shifting fast. It's not but it's shifting, but it is shifting. And every time one more doctor takes a look at that and and and reads it over a second time, you know that they're starting to see this thing that's real. But they wouldn't never see it if they didn't have this peer-reviewed evidence-based report that validates it. And that is so critical. And for that, Dr. Hoffman, I'm so grateful that you and your team were able to um compile this. And you know, I was more than glad to give you anything you needed, and I would have done it again.
SPEAKER_01:I couldn't have written it without your your you supplied all the data, Joe. Well, we we just put it, we just formatted it. You did the part I didn't know how to do, and I did the part it was, you know, it was just kind of almost automated because your data are so fantastic. And and the beauty of it, I mean, they're just out of this world data, right?
SPEAKER_00:And and and the beauty is we know exactly what we did, and the evidence shows exactly what happened. And again, we're not making a conclusion about it other than we did this and we got that, and that's it.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. That that's exactly right. We did this and we got that, right?
SPEAKER_00:And and every time that we're able to do that, now we have a Scott and a Shahiro, and we have more, you know, that there's there's people on the Zoom that don't talk much like Joanne.
SPEAKER_01:She's got a complete response to her uh chronic lymphocytic leukemia. Uh, I don't know if uh Wanda's still on. She's got looks like she went into remission on her on her rectal cancer, little girl with brain cancer. She's alive years more than she's predicted to be.
SPEAKER_00:And it's got some fantastic people. One of these case studies, and you start to put it up on the wall, it's like the detective trying to solve a murder mystery, and they put all these pieces up on the wall, and eventually it starts showing a picture. And I think that's what we're starting to do here. That's right. So, well, Robert, as always, it's been a pleasure for me too, Joe. I hope a million people watch this podcast. I do too, and and I'm just so excited that it's finally, you know, not only is the tumor finally gone, but the report is out there now, and it'll it's now a beacon that people can see and uh learn from and start to explore similar case studies. So again, can't share enough gratitude with you and your team.
SPEAKER_01:And uh we say we the we have the same gratitude to you for the I love it for the fantastic result you got.
SPEAKER_00:And that's what the being a part of a team is all about. Well, folks, this has been another episode of the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, Joe Grombine, and I want to thank everybody that has made this show possible. And Dr. Hoffman, always we're grateful for you. Always, Joe.
SPEAKER_01:I'm grateful to be on. Looking forward to the next one. And I hope we've reached more cancer patients every week. I love it, and we'll see you all next time.
