Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
A podcast about practices to promote healthy lives featuring experts, businesses, and clients: we gather to share our stories about success, failure, exploration, and so much more. Our subscription episodes feature some personal and vulnerable, real-life stories that are sensitive to some of the general public.
Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
Thriving, Not Just Surviving: A Roadmap for Cancer Warriors with Dr Robert Hoffman
What separates those who survive cancer from those who don't? According to Dr. Robert Hoffman, groundbreaking cancer researcher and returning guest on the Healthy Living Podcast, the answer might surprise you.
"If you want to get better from cancer, you gotta really want it," explains Dr. Hoffman in this candid conversation with host Joe Grumbine. "You've got to say 'I'm not going to let this beat me' and be prepared to do whatever it takes." This mindset, combined with evidence-based treatment approaches, forms the foundation of successful cancer recovery.
The episode reveals stunning new research about methionine restriction and its selective impact on cancer cells. Dr. Hoffman shares a recent laboratory breakthrough where his team compared methionine restriction with cysteine restriction, another popular target in cancer research. The results were shocking - while removing methionine killed cancer cells but left healthy cells intact, removing cysteine killed both cancer and normal cells indiscriminately. This simple experiment challenges many current theories promoting trendy cysteine-targeting treatments without proper validation.
Throughout their discussion, Grumbine and Hoffman address the vulnerability of cancer patients who may embrace unproven treatments out of desperation. They warn against "opinion leaders" promoting simple solutions without adequate evidence, likening them to cult leaders encouraging followers to "drink the Kool-Aid." Instead, they advocate for combining evidence-based conventional and alternative approaches while maintaining critical thinking throughout the cancer journey.
The conversation concludes with exciting news about an upcoming white paper based on a recent NIH symposium, suggesting that the scientific establishment is beginning to take alternative approaches more seriously. This represents a potential paradigm shift in cancer treatment, offering hope that more patients can access effective, scientifically-validated options beyond conventional approaches alone.
Ready to learn more about effective cancer treatment strategies? Join our weekly discussion calls every Sunday at 4pm Pacific time, where we share the latest research and support patients on their healing journey.
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Here is the link for Sunday's 4 pm Pacific time Zoom meeting
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, joe Grumbine, and I'm super excited. Today, back in the studio with us, we have Dr Robert Hoffman. Robert, welcome back to the show. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm fine, Joe. Thank you for having me. Always great to be here.
Speaker 1:Always a pleasure. You know, as we walk down this learning path, that we're both on. It's like. It's great just to share our experiences.
Speaker 2:Well, these experiences are nobody ever had before.
Speaker 1:I know. So we're in a new world here I feel like I'm exploring a new planet.
Speaker 2:Sometimes yeah, a new planet in a new galaxy somewhere.
Speaker 1:Exactly. But it's exciting because you know what. I woke up today and I'm still alive and I'm feeling good about it, good.
Speaker 2:And you're going to be waking up a lot more, thousands and thousands of times.
Speaker 1:Exactly, it's a. It's a good uh good experience when you know, like, where the road could have gone and where, where you are. Now I, um, I feel a little bad. I've missed the last several meetings.
Speaker 2:No problem, Joe, you come on whenever you can. No problem. That's the whole philosophy of that zoom come and go whenever it's good. It's always good when you're there. Don't worry about missing it, because it's going to go on forever exactly.
Speaker 1:Well, I will be there this week for sure, this last. You know it's funny because, um, there's a lot of layers to the things I do. I've shared with you a little bit. I do these sweat lodges and peyote ceremonies. Sometimes it's a lot of work. I'm up all night and we're singing and praying and doing medicine. Then you go in the sweat lodge and it's like a big steam sauna it's. You're all crouched down in this little cave and but what happens is you put your body through, you know, sort of a little torture almost.
Speaker 1:But well, it looks like it's a huge detox exactly, and and what it does is it opens up your mind and your spirit. And you know, robert, as much as a lot of the work that we're doing. You know you focus on the science and the. Show me the proof, and it's really important that we're doing that because that creates a roadmap for us to travel down. But I also travel down this road of spirit and mind and things that I can't necessarily quantify.
Speaker 2:You know Well, you know the spirit and mind, Joe, have powers that we can't imagine. And we don't know what it's connected to. So you know it's a good thing.
Speaker 1:I agree, and you know, in this journey going from when we first met to where I was at a really critical stage, to where we had this dramatic turnaround, to where now I'm on my way to the final steps of this and then coming up with the maintenance, you know schedule uh, it's been this crazy zigzag road, like it wasn't a straight path, it was up and down and sideways and you know one minute because everything's so new, joe we don't it's, it's.
Speaker 1:The road is not paved not at all, and what I learned through this is my desire to be here and to solve this problem. Underneath it, all has been instrumental in doing the hard work, like, for example there's a spirit thing, exactly. And you know, like this diet you know we talk about. Know, like this diet you know we talk about. Oh, there's this diet. Well, it's a whole lifestyle. It's not just like, oh, I eat some food.
Speaker 2:It's a lifestyle. It's, literally, it's a lifestyle and in order to convert to that lifestyle and stay on that lifestyle, you need a lot of spirit, because a lot of people can't make it.
Speaker 1:And that's been really the most frustrating, even though their life depends on it.
Speaker 2:I know they're like hanging from the building and they can't keep the grasp and they fall Exactly.
Speaker 1:It's really frustrating and saddening to me, because there's people that I know I could help and then when I tell them about what I'm doing and you watch their eyes kind of glaze over, they're like oh well we don't have time for them.
Speaker 2:We really have to. You know we try. We tell them they glaze next exactly. No, we need to help the people who want to be helped. We can't and I'm sorry to say this, but in reality we cannot help people who don't want to be helped or can't understand how to be helped. We don't have time to bash our head against the wall.
Speaker 1:There are people out there with nasty cancer that want to get better, and those are the people we want to pay attention to period so true, and you know, it's kind of like the old saying like if you, if there's a guy drowning and he don't want to be saved, and he's's thrashing around, you can't save him, he'll drag you down too. He'll drag you down. And that's kind of the way I see it. Like I've had people that come to me and they want to, you know, learn what I've done. I show them pictures, I show them this, and then you start talking to them and then they start telling you all about their you know the difficulties and all this and I'm like, okay, but I have an answer and I've realized that after a while you know they're just going to keep talking, right.
Speaker 2:They don't get it. They don't, or they can't, or don't want to. They can't get it. So okay, you know the old thing you bring the horse to the water.
Speaker 1:That's it Exactly. Well, that's what I'm learning. You know I want to help everybody, but it's like Can't Joe.
Speaker 2:And you can't let them drown you either.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and that's really where, like right now I'm literally on the last, Tomorrow I get the very last of the cisplatin and then I'm hopefully done with this chemo.
Speaker 2:Well, we've got to wait for a couple months.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:When are you going to get the scan prescribed by Dr?
Speaker 1:Song, he's ordered it and we haven't gotten confirmation from the insurance yet.
Speaker 2:So we need to see that scan and then make a plan when you're going to go to Japan.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I'm well aware of all that, and I'm also well aware that I'm going to do whatever I need to do.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I hope Dr Sato has a good idea to get you on some good maintenance. I'm sure he will. You've got to stay on the low methionine.
Speaker 1:methionine the rest of your life. Yeah, people hear that. They don't want to hear that. I know I'm committed to it.
Speaker 2:You know I mean like chihiro she's committed to it and her maintenance chemo. She has diarrhea every morning. She says, okay, I don't get my cancer, it's okay, my cancer doesn't come back.
Speaker 1:I'm okay, I'm right there with her. I respect her very deeply and the commitment that she's taken and the way she approaches things. And you know, that's where this community of survivors and thrivers it's not just survivors, community of survivors and thrivers, it's not just survivors, these are people that that you know, it's not just, it's not just staying alive. You know, because, like when they proposed all that radiation and surgery, to me the hope was that I would stay alive, but to me I said, well, that's, what kind of life is that?
Speaker 2:you know, if I'm, all it destroys your life, jo Right, walking around without a jaw. Oh man, this is just.
Speaker 1:God awful and not being able to swallow and having.
Speaker 2:Oh no.
Speaker 1:It's a nightmare.
Speaker 2:With your Facebook people.
Speaker 1:That's their life now, if you want to call it that and little by little I'm getting through to some of those guys and and at least I'm sharing the link to the, to the call, and you know, eventually they're going to trickle in. But it's okay yeah, most of them are just congratulating each other for surviving and I'm like, well, I, I can understand that too, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:They can't imagine that there was an alternative. They can't imagine it. It's so true. Most of them can't believe you.
Speaker 1:But then you hear about their diets and the protein and I just like, ah, and I just, you know, it's funny. I had another guest on the show a few days ago, another guest on the show a few days ago, and he has a diabetes program where he's got a patent formula that helps people to reverse their diabetes and of course it's a good you know good nutritional program if you don't have cancer. But it's funny, I he was telling me you know it's mostly vegetables and fruit and and, but he's talking about legumes and protein and I said, well, that's good for diabetes.
Speaker 1:I said that's great for diabetes, but if you don't have cancer, and I could tell, I kind of put him off a little bit because he didn't get what I was saying. No, no, of course not, I didn't worry about it, I just said well, you know, there's a lot of there's, there's a lot of double-edged swords out there and sometimes you got to decide, you know, like, even with the, the different therapies I do, sometimes if I do too much of one or not enough, you know it can have a a negative side effect that you got to go well, which is worth it, you know, and when it comes down to kill the cancer, stay alive and healthy, that's always the one that's going to win.
Speaker 2:And if I had a choice, for sure cancer a lot of people can't get that. It's very sad. Yeah, a lot in these last few years about people with cancer. Uh, you know, I used to think, oh boy, they'll do anything to get better.
Speaker 1:Right, but it's not true and even like this is grueling, like, like. So yesterday I I went to for a checkup with dr song because he's going on vacation and it's kind of cool. I asked him I go, so, doctor, where are you going to go on vacation? And he says he's going to go out to the anza borrego desert. He goes I want to go and see the stars. I go, wow, that's really a great place. That's cool because I go.
Speaker 1:You can realize how small we really are when you go out there. You look up at that milky way and you see how big just what we can see with our eyes is and uh, it's, it's really humbling. But um, I told him, you know, get rested up. You got a lot of good work to do, but he took the time before. Like I went Monday to get my final infusion, or you know, the began my final infusion and of course you know I'm there all day and when, when I'm done, I'm beat up and tired and all that. But he said, well, I want to see you Wednesday because I'm leaving for vacation. I mean, the guy took the time not just to call over the blood work, but he says I want you to come in and I want to see you before that and he goes. You know the office is going to be busy because I want to see you know pretty much everybody.
Speaker 1:But he took the time the day before he left on vacation to sit with me and he went through my whole chart. He went through my whole chart. He went through my blood work and every time I see him they pulse blood and he does a pretty extensive panel and he's looking at I don't even know all the things that he's looking at. I still have to learn some of the things that he's looking at, but I know it. A lot of it's the immune you know system, the white blood cells and all of that stuff and a lot, most of its nutrition.
Speaker 1:And it's funny because this last one, the only thing I came up low, was protein and albumin and it was just a little bit low and he was okay. He said he said to me he says, joe, he says you're handling the chemo very well, because he knows this is a really rough you know cocktail that I'm on absolutely. And he says you're doing really well, like he's impressed with my diet. I can tell each time I I see him he's got a little something about my diet. He keeps asking or we're getting through to him.
Speaker 2:He's getting there little by little. Yeah, we're getting through to him. You're going to show him your paper. It should be out about the beginning of November.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. That's so exciting, hopefully. And then he said you know the other doctor is going to administer the final piece of the infusion. I said that's fine and he's holding off on the immunotherapy until he gets back from vacation. Yeah, he wants to be monitoring you. Yes, I mean, what doctor does that spends that much attention? He's from the old school, joe the old school UCI, they would have just kept going. The old school joe. The old school uci, they would have just the old school is closed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so I I just again. I I know I say it every time I see you, but I'm so grateful that you connected me with this guy because I believe he's critical to my not just my survival, but my thriving and yeah, I, I, I and it.
Speaker 2:I'm so happy we could do it um and um it's.
Speaker 1:It's great, it was meant to be so I I always like to hear about your research. You're the most research in this guy I've ever known and you're always. I mean, I come to your, your office, and there's stacks of books and stacks of papers and stacks of like. You're just so immersed in this. It's, it's unbelievable. And how do you like, how do you navigate? I mean, there's so much information out there. How, what kind of a path do you take? Or how do you? How do you navigate? I mean, there's so much information out there. What kind of a path do you take? Or how do you travel down this information highway?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I'm far from the paradigm how to do it. You know, I just follow my instincts every day. Joe, okay, and I've got some really terrific young guys, and one of the young guys, utah Dr Miyashi, made a fantastic observation last week. Oh really, yeah. So we have this co-culture method we put in the same dish the cancer cells and the normal cells and we see and we do something and want to see what happens. So the cancer cells and the normal cells are under the same exact conditions.
Speaker 2:They're right there together yeah so we do as a kind of positive control. We, we took away the methionine. Well, just as you would expect, as we know, for the last 65 years, the cancer cells went away and the normal cells stayed happy, and that was our kind of let's call it a positive control. Then we took away cysteine Okay, because you see all this stuff on Zooms in the literature. Oh, wow, we're going to the target. The new target for cancer is cysteine, right, right, because we're going to knock out the oxidative uh protection system and da, da, da, da, and it's all about cysteine. Okay, so, utah, y-u-t-a, not u-t-a-h, makes a the another uh experiment within the cold culture. He puts the cancer cells in normal cells. This time he keeps the methionine in there and takes out the cysteine. Okay.
Speaker 1:And all the cells die.
Speaker 2:The normal cells die the cancer cells die Holy shit.
Speaker 1:Sorry for the French on your program.
Speaker 2:And and um, wow, Uh, and so you know, all these guys, these fancy papers and fancy journals, were, were, were're targeting cysteine in the cancer cells and we're doing so good, we're stopping them. They never just take out a few days and say, hey, what happens to some normal cells? So it's easy to kill cancer cells. Joe, put a little hydrochloric acid, put a little bleach on them, they'll die. Whatever Killing cancer cells is, they there's. They're very, very easy to kill right right.
Speaker 2:How do you do that without killing the patient? How do you do that without killing the normal cells? That ain't easy, no. And and methionine restriction does it. Is that enough? No, but it sure is. It's out, it's necessary. Well that's really powerful. You know we need to do as you see in your case. We needed to do that chemo if we just starved you from methionine, you wouldn't have this, this, this, this this great result.
Speaker 2:We need both and that's just fine. But this simple little thing doing the freaking control, looking at the normal cells, yeah, and we got a really nice system. Actually, a guy in our lab 40 years ago, peter, a crazy little guy, um, really smart, peter stern. I don't know if he's still alive, he'd be, he'd be, uh, over 80, a little bit. What a smart guy. He says, okay, I'm going to make a co-culture tumor normal. We didn't have methioninase in those days, we just had the medium, took out the methionine. Well, he managed to kill the cancer cells and keep the normal cells by doing that. He had to use a little chemo along the way and that was it. I mean that was published in 1986. It's a classic.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:So that's what we found out last week. So simple, you know. Research, good research is so simple. Simple, you know. You look into history, all these guys trying to figure out how the planets went around the sun Right Circles and doing this and doing handstands and whatever. And it turns out so simple.
Speaker 1:They just go around.
Speaker 2:They just go around, round and round. They don't do any tricks, just go around. So, the answers in science that are simple are probably the right ones.
Speaker 1:Well, it's Atkins Razor, right yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know, so simple To do the cold culture experiment. We did it with methionine. We knew how that was going to come out because we were doing it for 40 years. And then we, you know, and I didn't care about cysteine all these decades because I didn't think there was anything to it by paper after paper and claim after claim, oh, we got it. We got a target cysteine. We got a target cysteine. Finally I said, all right, so we just did the simplest little tiny experiment and you take out cysteine, you kill the cancer cells and you kill all the normal cells.
Speaker 1:Wow, and that ain't no good no, and that's that's actually really troubling, because I know a lot of people that are focusing a lot of their energy on yeah, theraptosis, that's the new buzzword right, and it's bull scrappy yeah, wow, I'm, I'm really.
Speaker 1:You know, when we talked a little while ago behind the scenes about all this, I, I, I ceased that whole program because I just didn't. I you said some things that were pretty powerful and and the the level of selenium and all this stuff is like. I did my own research and I whoa, that's like way more than any recommended amount of that.
Speaker 2:You got this girl. I don't know if you remember Gabriela, yes, and that poor girl. Her hair's falling out, her nails are black, she can't stand up. And I said what's your blood results, gabriella? Well, my albumin is just okay, not bad. My hemoglobin is only about A. Well, that's low. I asked Dr Exame, can she survive on it? Yeah, it's okay, not good, but okay. And then she said my selenium is 734. I said what's the maximum high normal? I don't know about 140.
Speaker 2:I said, holy moly you're just poisoning yourself, and that might be, I don't know. I don't know if she'll stop or not stop. I'm guessing, if she stopped, maybe all these terrible symptoms, some of them are going to go away. Yeah, I'm guessing, if she stopped, maybe all these terrible symptoms, some of them are going to go away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's. You know, it's really frustrating because people tout studies as though they're equal. And you know, you can do a study in your own backyard and say, oh, I'm studying this and I'm noticing this and that, and then you can say I did a study. Well, what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything. And then you do a true, you know, blind or double blind, you know, and then submit it for peer review and and, and you know, get it approved by your peers who recognize the science you did. Well, that's a whole different study, that's a. It's different, it's different.
Speaker 2:It's different. People say oh Jane, whatever said in her book this, and it's Christian, his book said that. Right, that doesn't mean scrapola, and you know I don't know.
Speaker 1:Anecdotal evidence has its value.
Speaker 2:It does, and that's all our clinical studies. Your study is an anecdote.
Speaker 1:Joe, absolutely Sorry.
Speaker 2:But the result is good. Do we care which component really was the main driver? We don't care. We care that you're so good.
Speaker 1:Right, and we're going to compile this observation with dozens or hundreds of other observations. Yeah, and hopefully, but you know, joe, the trouble.
Speaker 2:my trouble is a little bit and I'll go back in a minute. Yeah, is you know? I went on the Russian TV.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And in the interview they said to me this is about ivermectin and fenbendazole, right. And in the interview they said to me this is about, uh, ivermectin and fenbendazole. I'm all for it. And they say well, you know, uh, mel Gibson said three friends recovered from from from a stage four cancer, just on that and they're not going to take any of this toxic pharmaceutical stuff.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And the interviewer said to me are you worried about that? So I didn't answer him directly. I just said with maybe a very rare exception, I don't accept patients who refuse standard therapy. That was my answer Once in a while. Once in a while, once in a while, you know. You know it can't be so rigid, but that's my general right.
Speaker 1:But there are certain cancers that are very aggressive and others that are yeah, we've got.
Speaker 2:You know, like, like, like, like dave, he hangs in there, just undefining restriction, okay, but it's a very kind of indolent cancer. Right, exactly, and you know what troubles me, though, joe, is some of these so-called opinion leaders, or hucksters, or whatever you want to call them. Right, they remind me of Jim Jones Drink the Kool-Aid, right, you know, they take these people's word, uh they're like you know just because they said it, it's, you know, drink the kool-aid and you know, and it's a cult thing it is.
Speaker 2:And I guess a cancer patient, just as a hostage right, might be very susceptible to that kind of brainwashing. Well so, and who's more vulnerable than a cancer patient?
Speaker 1:nobody, and and we want to we want to find answers that we can believe in and we want to find answers that are less harmful, and we want to believe that you know that there's a natural answer for everything, and in some cases there is. But the truth, like you said, generally the solution is going to require some heavy lifting and some difficult choices and you know a good, well rounded, natural diet and all of that on top of it, but just one thing or another. It's like you said. These are very vulnerable people. I know that. You know I happen to have a lot of strength inside that says I'm not listening to anybody unless I do my own vetting and I determine that it's got value.
Speaker 1:But most people, when you get hit with you got cancer and this is what's likely to happen. It scrambles you, it really just like tears you apart and you're standing like on a rickety board and you don't know if it's going to snap and you're just like I don't know what to do. And then somebody comes along and says, well, I've got this answer for you and here's this study and here's this, whatever. And this is maybe somebody that is respected for something. Maybe he's an actor, maybe he's a scientist of some sort, but we people will tend to give this person validation for something they don't deserve and I'll just go oh, okay, well, you said that, so I, I'm gonna do what you said. Like you said, drink that Kool-Aid and man it's, it's.
Speaker 1:It's horrible because I know, I want to believe that there's these natural, simple answers for everything and, you know, maybe if your mind is strong enough and your spirit is strong enough and you've got enough whatever superpower to make something like that happen, you can do it. But I don't think most people do, that's for sure, and I think most people. When you take something that is difficult, you know, like I said, they're double-edged sword. Right, I'm going through my sixth round of this chemo and I'm weak as hell right now. But I'm sitting here talking to you and I'm a little nauseous and that's all right.
Speaker 1:We just keep going and I know Really, no pain, no pain, no gain exactly and I know tomorrow will be a little better than the next day, I'll be a little better and, and after a few days of this stuff running through my system, I'll be right back to where I was and you'll be better than where you were exactly, and and the cancer will be gone. And now I'll have a new life where I have choices that I can make, that can keep it gone, just simply by a little bit of discipline. And, you know, once in a while maybe I give myself a treat and I, you know, take the extra methionine is, but once in a while it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a, you know, maybe a once a month thing, or or I mean, you know, but not absolutely, no problem not the lifestyle.
Speaker 1:You see, that's yeah, that like we tell it. It's so easy to slip too. I mean, trust me, even like when my nausea is really bad, sometimes I'll have a little cereal and have a little goat's milk on it, just a little bit, but you know yeah something I can put in make you feel better with all that chemo yeah, and it stays in my belly and doesn't go, you know, doesn't want to come back up.
Speaker 1:All right, I take my methionine. As I look at the chart I'm like, oh, it's not too bad, it's just enough to, it's all problem. But that's as far as I go. I'm not having a sushi dinner, I'm not doing. Look, look at your result. Just look in the mirror. Exactly so you know, I guess the message is always for these people that are listening. You know I've sent a lot of people links to this podcast. I sent a lot of people links to the call on Sunday at 4 o'clock Pacific time.
Speaker 2:Here's the secret. Here's the secret. All right, if you want to get better from cancer, you gotta really want it exactly you gotta really, really, really want it yes and be prepared to put yourself through a lot of agony or whatever to change whatever you gotta want it. You gotta say'm not going to let this beat me and I'm going to do what I need to do. This is the main point.
Speaker 1:That is a hundred percent truth. And I know, when I came to that place, you know, I came to kind of a dark spot and I got a message in my mind so what are you willing to do for this? I was like whoa, where'd that come from? And I, I, I reckon that I had to make that decision. And I said you know what I'm going to do, whatever it takes, and I'm not even Whatever it takes.
Speaker 2:Whatever it takes, cancer is good. You know that this guy, mukherjee, whatever his name, siddhartha, whatever his name wrote this book. You know he's a huckster, he's an oncologist, but I think kind of a huckster. But he said the title of his book I think was correct Cancer, the emperor of all maladies. There you go, Nothing can match it.
Speaker 1:Right? No, it's a survivor.
Speaker 2:It wants to live more than you do sometimes, that's right and it has the ability to live more than you do, unless you take some extraordinary measures.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. Well listen, I always want to hear. You did that symposium and NIH was starting to talk and guess what, joe?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the leader, Dr Xi, has agreed and has gotten permission to write up a white paper based on all of that and she's asking me for advice which journal? I think we've decided probably on a good journal. I don't know if we can get it in, but we need to try.
Speaker 1:So she's into it and she's a green light. That is the best news I know when we were talking about the first round there was three rounds of this symposium and you spoke on the third and final round yeah, the very end and you were saying from the beginning you know, the best thing could come out of this is we get a white paper. Yeah, it's like a white paper. Yeah, Like it's happening.
Speaker 2:Wow, it's going to happen. It might take a year or two. Hey, it's going to happen.
Speaker 1:It's in the works, though, you see. Look, the paradigm is starting to crack a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's in the works and probably this will lead the fact that we've got permission for the white paper. I'm guessing that it'll be okay to put all the talks on the website. I love it Anyway sorry, one step at a time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I'm so excited. Well, robert, as always, this is always a great conversation and I love to hear the of the research and all of it. And you know, and all of it, and you know. Just reiterating, you know we talk about some of the same things again, because it's always important, but we always explore little bits of of of where we're headed and and how this information is developing and, um, it's, it's always exciting for me. So I again thank you so much for all that, thank you too.
Speaker 2:Joe, thank you for your program, thank you for helping having me, and I think we're helping a lot of patients. Things don't happen overnight, but we're getting out there, we're making progress, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, I want to thank everybody that's listening, and we will see you all next time.
Speaker 2:Okay, terrific.
