Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
A podcast about practices to promote healthy lives featuring experts, businesses, and clients: we gather to share our stories about success, failure, exploration, and so much more. Our subscription episodes feature some personal and vulnerable, real-life stories that are sensitive to some of the general public.
Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
Mind, Body, Spirit: The Synergy of Wellness with David Amerland
What if the path to optimal health isn't found in a gym or supplement store, but in the space between your thoughts? In this captivating reunion conversation with returning guest David Amerland, we explore the fascinating intersection of mind, body, and spirit that forms the foundation of true wellness.
The power of visualization takes center stage as we discuss remarkable research showing how athletes who simply imagine their rehabilitation exercises recover at nearly identical rates to those performing physical therapy. This isn't mystical thinking—it's backed by neuroscience. When we visualize an action, our blood chemistry changes, cellular activity increases, and our metabolic rate rises. Our bodies respond to our thoughts in measurable, powerful ways.
David introduces the concept that our brains don't simply think independently—they "think with the world." We're constantly processing environmental feedback that shapes our perception and physical responses. Microsoft's specially designed "quietest room" demonstrates this dramatically, as people experience vertigo and nausea when deprived of all external sensory input. This reveals how deeply our nervous systems are integrated with our surroundings.
We delve into the emotional roots of performance blocks, whether in elite athletes, executives, or creatives. As Eastern philosophy states: "What is within will be manifested without." Our conversation explores how childhood trauma shapes neurological processing, affecting everything from stress responses to physical health outcomes. The pandemic forced many to confront their authentic selves when external identity reinforcements disappeared, revealing how exhausting it is to constantly perform different versions of ourselves for different audiences.
The health implications are significant—people living inauthentically experience higher rates of heart disease and chronic stress conditions. David offers a powerful closing thought: "If you find ways where you're true to yourself always, then you reduce the energetic load of your day-to-day living," creating margin to handle life's inevitable challenges.
Whether you're seeking to optimize performance, overcome health challenges, or simply live with greater authenticity, this conversation offers insights that bridge ancient wisdom with cutting-edge science. Ready to discover what's really blocking your potential?
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Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, joe Grumbine, and today I'm kind of tickled. I have a returning guest and I love it when this happens. This is David Amerlund, and, if you remember, he came on I don't know, I guess it was back in April or May and we were talking about his new book, built to Last. David and I share a lot in common and he's an accomplished author. He's published several books, he's got an amazing health-based platform and I've been able to experience a little bit of that and I plan to go deeper into it. But, most importantly, we share a lot of common experiences and ideas about the road to wellness. David, welcome back. I'm so glad to have you back here on the show. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great and, joe, I'm actually thrilled to be back talking to you. Last time, as you said, the synergy was great. I left the conversation feeling buzzed. I'm doing great and, joe, I'm actually thrilled to be back talking to you. Last time, as you said, the synergy was great. I left the conversation feeling buzzed. I'm really excited to see what we're going to cover today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the last time we talked I was deeply battling a big tumor sticking out of my neck, and today we're in a much better place than that and I've traveled this crazy roller coaster of Western medicine and holistic approach and spiritual practices and energy work and all of these things that you're so familiar with. And I know you're actually talking to us from the beautiful country of Greece and I'm kind of curious to see what is Greece like this time of year.
Speaker 2:It's actually pretty hot. It was 36 degrees centigrade today.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, there's no big fires burning or anything right now, though right.
Speaker 2:No, at the moment. No, and there was a bit of a scare, like a couple of months back in July.
Speaker 1:Right, I remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that sort of has blown over now, so we've been relatively quiet out here in California too, as always, there's wildfires burning every day, but not like some of the big ones we've had. There's still some activity. Well, and speaking of wildfire, you know we deal with health, right? The idea of our body and mind and spirit's potential Is that kind of how you see health. I mean, to me, I see the target as what are you capable of, right? That's your goal is. You know? Maybe we could try to be the best we can. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I'm very glad you sort of bring things together like body, mind, spirit. Um, frequently we tend to focus on the body because the part of us that we actually see right, and when we work on that we see some changes and we think, well, you know, that's all there is. But essentially it's a much bigger picture and what we know from neuroscientific studies where the body and the brain have actually been looked at in tandem, whatever the brain images, the body can actually become, so true and um, there's um in in traditional literature especially, especially in martial arts, the whole body of work where you have advanced practitioners sitting and sort of contemplating and in their mind they're going through very specific techniques and they're working through and focusing on them. And within the literature it's said that advanced practitioners they need to train as much in a dojo because they could actually do it that way. And it sounds like a little bit airy-fairy, it's sort of.
Speaker 2:You know, you think this is not going to happen, right, but we have actually done fMRI studies on this. Now we know that if you imagine your body moving in a particular way, or if you imagine your body responding in a particular way, the neurochemistry of your blood cells changes. In response to that, blood temperature goes up, cellular activity begins to increase. The metabolic rate of the resting body actually shows an increase. Now that increase is not of the same order of magnitude if you're actually engaged in that physical activity, but nevertheless everything is activated in the same way, but to a much smaller degree. And this is a connection between body and brain, the imaging part of us where we actually visualize what we want to become and we help our body to actually reach that.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's absolutely true. In fact, in my studies, just in my health studies, there's been actual case studies done. They were all injured and they were in recovery and one of them, physically, was going through the efforts to rehabilitate and going through the physical activities but not doing any mental work on it, and one of them was laid in a hospital bed and visualizing going through those very same activities and the third one did nothing. And so this was, you know, I think they were doing brain scan studies as well, but this was just watching the physical progress of it and they said that the athlete that laid in his hospital bed but visualized the same efforts and exercises and therapeutic techniques as the athlete that actually was doing them had a very similar rate of recovery. And the one that laid in his bed and did nothing had a dramatically reduced recovery. And it was really astounding to see that that in action.
Speaker 1:And I come from a number of spiritual traditions where visualization is part of a prayer, and I've witnessed myself the clearer you can imagine a thing, the quicker it happens, and it happens more or less just like you imagine it. It's really incredible. And a final point, before we jump further, is something that I've always brought to people's mind is that everything you see that was ever made by man or frankly, in nature, I believe, all started out as, as a thought, like there isn't a piece of furniture, a house, a car, a piece of clothing, anything that somebody didn't see first in their mind before they created it. And I think absolutely to understand that is like, oh well, why am I not spending? And then you think about what am I doing in my mind, you know scrolling through social media arguing about stupid things. And you think about what am I doing in my mind, you know, scrolling through social media arguing about stupid things, and you're like what am I creating here all day long?
Speaker 2:Right, yes, it's funny. I should say that we tend to think that we think with our brain, because we are the direct observers of our thoughts as they take place on a self-awareness level. But there is the external mind theory which says that, essentially, the brain thinks with the world. It needs the external input in order to process the signals which will give rise to emotions, which will create thoughts, which will lead to actions. And if you're separated from the world, well sure, you can have some kind of thinking for a while. But we know from people who have been put in incarceration and they have had to be put in an isolation cell that within 24 to 48 hours they begin to hallucinate and within 72 hours they lose touch of reality and sometimes they lose touch of who they are themselves.
Speaker 2:And when I was writing Built to Last, one of the things which I looked at is the quietest room in the world, which is created by Microsoft. Now, microsoft has created an incredible room, and I can't remember the cost of it, but it's hundreds of millions of dollars. Essentially, it rests on particular sensors and it's sort of surrounded by different levels of insulation, and when you're in that room, nothing from the external world comes in no sound, no vibration, no airflow, nothing. And people who enter that room experience vertigo. They feel that suddenly something changed and the transition is that, even though you're in a building that's relatively quiet because nobody's shouting, that building is subject to vibrations. It's subject to a whole lot of sensations which come from the external world. We don't consciously understand that we're processing those vibrations, but they still make us feel connected to that world. They make us feel part of something, even though we're not consciously aware of it.
Speaker 2:And the moment you enter that I think it's called room 52, which is not very imaginative you enter that place and there's no vibrations, nothing coming from that external world. There's nothing coming from the earth, nothing coming from no vibrations, nothing coming from that external world. There's nothing coming from the earth, nothing coming from traffic, nothing coming from airflow, there are no variations in temperature. And suddenly you realize how much work your senses are doing all the time, connecting you to things around you which make you feel part of something bigger.
Speaker 2:The moment you're in that room and people feel nauseous, they feel like they're going to throw up. Some people can't actually stand up straight because there's no feedback from from the planet. You know, normally, if we stand up and try to balance, there's a call, we're not aware of it. Yeah, yeah, exactly yes, so so it's fascinating. But that comes back to what you were saying. But you know, the brain itself is getting a lot of stuff from around us Nature, things we see, things which we think, we imagine, and a lot of the things and thoughts which we create are the result of input signals we've processed from somewhere.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And that constantly goes on.
Speaker 1:That's one of the problems that they need to solve with deep space travel. You know, even if they can figure out how to put a human into, you know, some kind of suspended animation and keep them there for a while. What do you do with the brain? You know, and if you put a body to sleep, is the brain sleeping or is it still trying to process things? And what it's going to do without that feedback? There's a lot going on, I think some of it I wasn't aware of this room you're talking about. I could imagine the complete deprivation would have such a negative effect.
Speaker 1:You, you, I think about isolation as going to nature where you're not bombarded with all the signals. You know the 5g and the. You know the, the, the radiation and the sound waves and the, all the things, even just the, the words and the noise and the. You know the, the, the, the waves that everybody's putting out just from their own aura fields. You go up into the high Sierras or some remote place, for you know, you go hike for an hour and sit up on a rock and all of a sudden, you know, you feel this connection just to the earth and it's a different feedback and generally, for me, anyways, it's very positive. You know, you feel the earth under your feet, you feel, probably, the magnetic field, you feel whatever energy the rocks and the trees and the animals around you are putting out, but it's a different type of energy than you know a bunch of angry humans are putting out, and I think that there's definitely a healing that comes from a type of isolation for a period of time, but not a complete isolation Like you talk about, in a prison environment where you go into a solitary confinement that is designed to isolate a person's spirit and humanity and break them down the way it does I mean, it's made for that and it works so well whereas you can spend time in nature, I think, for a while before it gets to you, probably get to you eventually. But um, and I, you know, I don't believe we're designed to be by ourselves for longer than some brief period of time, days or weeks, whatever that is.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think that there's definitely this line, just like everything, we come to understand the layers and, frankly, when I say we understand, I speak from an animal point of view. Really, we don't understand shit. You know, we talk about God and I'm like how do you even think to mention a word like that when we don't even understand, I think is important to have discussions about, because it opens up the notion that everything's so much bigger than you know, our perception of it is. And when you're talking about body, mind and spirit, I think, more often than not, the body which we glorify so much and we give so much attention to is often just a barometer of what's really going on. You know, when you find, you know you work with clients all the time and I'll bet more often than not you find there's a an emotional or spiritual or mental core to a problem that's being shown with physical symptoms. What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Every time, always, there's in the canon of Eastern philosophy there's a line that says what is within will be manifested without. And that's exactly what we're seeing every single time Athletes who are blocked, elite performers who are blocked in that performance they have an emotional knot to work their way through. We see top-level, top-flight CEOs in companies who can't actually physically do their job properly because emotionally they're blocked somewhere. So every time we experience um any kind of dysfunction at a physical level whether that is attentional stress related, physical performance related, anything which tends to stymie us and hold us back it has a root cause in the emotional aspect of our of ourselves. And unless we can work through that, through a clearer understanding of our identity, our goals, our purpose, we most times fail to get past it and we reach a ceiling until the next level.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. You look at a professional athlete, that's a world-class athlete a pitcher, a batter, a quarterback, whatever, a basketball player, a soccer player, it doesn't matter. Everybody sometimes finds themselves in a slump where they go from performing consistently in all manners of challenge and obstacles and different you know a boxer, you know whatever left-handed, right-handed, high altitude, low altitude these guys just performing and all of a sudden one day they stall out and they can't do anything right. And you know, they talk about the slump, they talk about all these things, but the truth is there's something blocking them. A writer, a prolific writer all of a sudden they can't come up with five words to put together An actor, a performer of any kind. So you deal with people on a regular basis. People come to you looking to improve their performance or solve a problem, and how do you address that? I think that this is an important little piece of the puzzle here.
Speaker 2:It is, and we always go through a very simple process where we try to understand what's really important to that individual. And most of the times people conceptualize, they use cognitive processes to sort of think of what they want to do, because they have this perception of how they should be seen, how they should be performing. But none of those things are true to who they are. And the moment we start peeling back the layers of what does that person want to do, and then why do they want to do it, then it becomes a lot clearer, because then the true values come to the surface, the true purpose comes to surface, the true focus of what they should be doing, and then it becomes very evident why they can't perform the way they can. And sometimes, you know, due to circumstances, they reach a natural ceiling. They can't get past what they have because the circumstance is now holding them back and they need to change them, usually by changing jobs and changing careers or or changing approaches. But that process, that very simple process, is pretty brutal. You have to face yourself.
Speaker 2:You have to be truthful, that's, and we we lie to ourselves all the time oh, constantly, constantly.
Speaker 1:I I think that's huge. You know, we talked in our very first conversation about accountability and, um, you know, that's really, I think, what's underneath all of this. You know I was telling you I I work with with a lot of healers from around the world and I know it's kind of a fashionable thing, but I've been doing this for my whole life and lately I've been spending some time with some plant medicines that have really held me accountable. So when you spend all night long, you know, in a fire and working with these medicines and singing and praying and just really putting your attention to this one thing, you get shown a truth. And most of these times it's not something you necessarily want to see, or it's something that you already know but you've been sort of pushing aside, or maybe it's something you didn't even realize and all of a sudden it comes gushing out of you and you're like whoa, I didn't even get that. But it's that truth, that accountability that I think is instrumental to our healing, regardless of what the problem is, to our healing, regardless of what the problem is. And so when you deal with somebody, you know you're looking at, basically going back to basics, and saying, okay. Well, what brought you here? Right? What's what's your goal? What are you doing right? What is what's your point here? What are you doing right? And they'll. That's usually pretty easy to come upon. Oh, I'm trying to do this. So my goal I'm you know I'm.
Speaker 1:You beat the goal into your head for so long, but then, when you come to okay, well, how did you get here? You know what have you done and you know why are you here. What's in your way? You start looking at these truths. And we spend so much time making excuses for things or convincing ourselves that it's okay, you know, to put up with this or to allow ourselves that, even though we said we weren't gonna, we come up with reasons, excuses for just about anything and everything.
Speaker 1:I know I have the ability to do that. And when I hold myself to the fire and say, no, you said you're going to do this. All of a sudden it's like, okay, it's not easy, but all of a sudden the road starts going. Instead of going zigzagging and up and down, it gets a lot more straight and narrow and you realize, you know, if I just do the thing I said only and own the consequences of what I don't and say, oh well, I got this, but then look, I did that. It becomes a lot easier in the sense of the confusion and the how did I get here and I don't know why, I don't know, and it becomes more just a matter of choices and accountability. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean most people, without exception, struggle with some kind of lack of clarity, and the lack of clarity comes from that initial inability to focus on the things that are truly important to us, and most of the time we don't understand what is truly important to us. We kind of receive messages from the external world that tells us to focus on specific things, behave in a particular way, be a particular type of person. But the moment we actually focus on what is important to us, then we are better able to prioritize. If we prioritize our actions, we're actually putting a lot of energy into things which we're going to do, and that begins to reflect our values, and it's the values that actually help us understand the range of choices in front of us and which choice we should be making. So once we sort of break it down like this, it becomes very straightforward and self-evident and obviously it is not anything like that.
Speaker 2:It is really really difficult and and he said he said earlier that you know how difficult it is to actually deal with that go through, peel back the layers, ask why and get some answers and then keep on asking why until you get to truly basic answers and what comes from that is that in most cases we fail to understand our initial conditions, the trauma we have, the growth we need to undertake, and growth is what makes us adults. We start out as children and regardless of how well-placed we are in the world as children, we're going to receive some kind of trauma. This is inevitable. And then the childhood trauma to some extent will determine our initial phases as young people.
Speaker 2:But from then on, the adulting part of us, the part of us which says you know you're an adult is the part that actually takes that trauma, understands, it begins to put in place processes that help you overcome it, so that your reactions, your thoughts, your thinking, your values are not rooted in the trauma that initially shaped you totally. That includes your mental as well as your physical health. You know if you are, for example and then we've seen it before people who are reactive, they're reactive because you know they came from a childhood home perhaps where everybody around them reacted in really ways. So their neurological processes, the way that the process signals from the outside world, have a higher arousal, have a lower arousal threshold, which leads to higher reactivity to external stimuli, which means that they experience a lot more stress in their life. They're more anxious, they're less able to focus their attention, they experience more chronic conditions because of stress, they make bad choices because they can't focus their attention. They tend to be overweight, they tend to be unfit, they tend to get into long, wrong relationships.
Speaker 2:You know the whole list of things and you say, okay, you know how do we fix that Right. And the moment you realize that, hey, you know, I don't have to be like that, I don't have to be reactive, I don't have to be anxious about everything, and of course, you obviously need to realize why you're anxious and reactive in the first instance. Then you begin to change your behavior. If you change your behavior, you change your neurochemistry and your homeostatic balance and that has a whole lot, an entire cascade of positive health outcomes which then lead to better choices.
Speaker 1:I've got a question In some of the work I've been doing with some of the different people from different traditions. Many times it comes to going back and visiting yourself as a child and saying, all right, well, let's go back and see if I can get in touch with who I was at that time and try to remember. You know you go back to memories that are implanted, that you are, you know there's fix you. Most of your life I don't think you remember is mostly a blur, but there are certain these certain milestones, these points where you can go. Okay, I can go right back to that Christmas morning or I can go back to that one time when that thing happened and just literally go back and live through those lives.
Speaker 1:And some of the work that I've been doing with some of these people and whether it's in a sweat lodge or in a different type of a ceremony setting involves going back to a traumatic moment, moment and meeting that person who is you and accepting them and and acknowledging that you see them well.
Speaker 1:It's getting emotional just even talking about it, but you know we go through our life not thinking about who we were, where we came from, because you don't want to remember these things sometimes and you know, for me I had a relatively mild childhood.
Speaker 1:But you still go back and you remember as a child, well, the things that today don't seem like they were a big deal maybe at a time they did and you know you live in a much smaller world. When you're a kid and something happens to you then and you're like, well, that just rocked my world and I I didn't even remember that. And you go back and you, you tell that kid, you're going to be all right and I love you and and um, something about you sort of connects with that and re-establishes that as a part of you. Like you are who you are because of what you've done. And have you dealt with people sort of acknowledging their younger persons I hate to use that term inner child because I think that's more of a concept, of a way of thinking, rather than the actual person who is there at the time. And you know I don't know how time works I think maybe something in the past is still happening on some weird level.
Speaker 2:Um, but the child is always uh, the child is always present in us.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's never really gone away. And you're right. A lot of the times we live in a state of denial. We think, well, I'm all grown up now, I'm all responsible now. And you think, well, where does that come from? What does it even mean? What does it mean grown up, what does it mean responsible? And you need to peel back the layers. You know we use words without thinking those words actually have meaning. That meaning has a certain burden of um behavior and that tends to lock us into states which sometimes are not natural to us, so we end up fighting ourselves pretty much always.
Speaker 1:Pretty much always. We're always our worst enemy, I think.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think during the pandemic it was the biggest, which is, you know, from a certain perspective, the pandemic became a global social experiment. Sure, suddenly I mean 2019, I had a lot of traveling to do with my consulting work, especially in terms of social media, marketing and search, and dealing with executives and the C-suite execs from different global companies, and that 2019, I traveled 55,000 air miles. You know, I was crisscrossing the globe. Yeah, it's crazy. And then the pandemic, the pandemic hit and, of course, all that died, like that, and we're locked in.
Speaker 2:So then we ended up having Zoom calls and it was fascinating because you know you're having Zoom calls with people who are the same people. You know they have the certain kind of executive power, they still run certain teams, they still have a certain level of corporate authority, except now those people are working from home with their wives and kids and a dog Right, and they're falling apart. Yeah, because there's nothing there to shore up who they are, to give them the status they have, to reinforce the identity they had of the projection that they were putting out, which was meeting the expectations of the world around them. So then we had to say, okay, what do you want to do really, and so meetings that were supposed to be about one-to-one sometimes two-to-one it was supposed to be about reshaping corporate strategy and reworking marketing, messaging and all those things and understanding the dynamics that were. In effect, it ended up being kind of psychotherapy, because we had to go through that first.
Speaker 1:It always ends up that way, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, before they could actually, um, then focus on work and feel comfortable working from home, in that environment, and still feeling that they had the authority in the, the power that they had when they were at work. That's crazy, but also eye-opening, right, because it showed us how much we tie into expectations, how much we respond to expectations, how much we behave to an expectation which is then reinforced because we met it. Somebody expects you to be, let's say, somebody expects you to be, a Sergeant Major you know kind of caricature we see in films and you actually come out and you behave like that you dress the part, you look the part, you sound the part. This is not you, but if that's what I'm expecting from you and you give it to me, I'm going to think you are great yeah.
Speaker 2:I think you're great. And now, what have I done? I've locked you into that.
Speaker 1:You can't say to me, hey david I'm not really like that.
Speaker 2:I'm a really nice guy. I'm going to do it differently because I expect you to be that way and now you're going to to wreck that. Yeah, so so you know, this actually happened in the pandemic. You know, the external world suddenly came to a stop. People had to really dig deep to find the resources they needed to understand who they were in order to do their basic day-to-day job from a distance. That was an eye-opener I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1:What a what a game changer. I mean it. It it killed a lot of businesses. It it took a lot of uh, people from a higher point, lowered them down, you know, you know whatever from a, from a socioeconomic point of view. And yet some people found their niche inside of this place and began to thrive and created some new opportunities and some new tools and techniques.
Speaker 2:Exactly. It forced a lot of people to actually become real, because that is really powerful. If you are you always, well. I only have two options here I can either accept you or reject you. That's on me, right. So if I reject who you are because you don't click, well that's it. But it's not on you because you are you. But so that's a very real, very strong connection. If you're not real but you're projecting to what I think you need to be, you're trapped into that and I'm sort of trapping you with my expectations and that's a very fake kind of. It's very draining. It doesn't help me because I'm not really getting the real you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the connection is sort of lost in a third party somewhere.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. And from your perspective it's so tiring because you know you have to be this for me. You're going to have to be something else for somebody else. You're going to have to be something else for somebody else. Then the question that's begged is who are you really?
Speaker 1:Right. You lose touch with who you are if you're performing all the time. I think yes.
Speaker 2:And it's stressful. Actually it's reflected in higher people who are in that kind of mode. They have higher incidences of heart disease, cardiovascular illnesses, chronic stress disease, cardiovascular illnesses, you know, chronic stress. They have sort of all those things which are associated with high stress levels and anxiety. Because you're constantly performing and your brain is constantly alert, you know sort of trying to look for clues. What do I expect you to be so that you can give it away?
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. Well, david, I knew this was going to happen. We're going to get jumping down a rabbit hole and have a great conversation Next thing. I know I've gone over my time and it's all good. I was hoping it would happen this way and it did beautifully and naturally. I think that we've really touched on some very important points. I'd like to give you an opportunity to kind of wrap it up into a thought, if you can.
Speaker 2:I think that we've really touched on some very important points.
Speaker 1:I'd like to give you an opportunity to kind of wrap it up into a thought, if you can. Absolutely yes.
Speaker 2:And remind us how we can get a hold of you and some of the latest work you've been doing. Thank you for this. Okay, so here's an easy way to make life simpler. If you find ways where you're true to yourself always, then you reduce the energetic load of your day-to-day living and that makes life infinitely simpler because you have more margin to deal with emergencies. They're still going to happen. You're still going to meet a crisis. You're still going to have some some problem to deal with, but now you have more energy to actually deal with that, as opposed to always operating to the very edge of your capability and then anything extra happens is too much and it can cause you to crash and burn. I still put out a lot of stuff. I put out a lot of studies. These days, I tend to link to the studies and sort of put in a couple of uh sentences explaining them. So you'll find this on my website at davidammermancom, and you can find my social media as well, because I put them out there as well wonderful, well david, as always.
Speaker 1:Um, I knew when I met you the first time we talked, before we even recorded our first episode, I go, man, this guy needs to be a regular and I really appreciate your way of thinking and I know you're helping a lot of people out there and I look forward to our continued conversation.
Speaker 2:Same here. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. Well, thank you all to the listeners, and this has been another edition of the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, joe Grumbine, and we will see you next time.
