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Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
Seeds of Change in Cancer Research with Dr Robert Hoffman
What happens when the standard cancer treatment playbook fails patients? Dr. Robert Hoffman joins us to share a breakthrough moment for his decades-long research into methionine addiction in cancer cells. After years of struggling against medical orthodoxy, his work has finally reached the National Cancer Institute through a historic symposium specifically focused on methionine restriction therapy.
The conversation reveals both the promise and challenges of pioneering medical approaches that don't align with pharmaceutical profit models. Dr. Hoffman explains why methioninase—an enzyme that targets cancer's unique metabolic weakness—shows remarkable results without the devastating side effects of conventional treatments. With approximately 370 patients having received methioninase without a single adverse event reported, the safety profile stands in stark contrast to standard therapies.
Our host Joe shares his personal journey battling an aggressive stage 4A cancer, detailing how his oncologist's insistence on radiation therapy (with its "murderous" side effects) led him to seek alternatives. Through a combination approach including methionine restriction and carefully selected chemotherapy, Joe's massive tumor dramatically reduced without surgery—leaving doctors astonished at his transformation. When his treatment was prematurely halted despite obvious success, finding a doctor willing to continue the protocol became a desperate race against time.
The episode showcases a fundamental problem in modern medicine: physicians who rigidly follow standard protocols rather than evaluating evidence before their eyes. As Dr. Hoffman's Japanese collaborator laments, "most doctors are unaware that the standard treatment regimen for cancers is fundamentally flawed" and have "no intention of curing the disease." Yet the conversation ends on a hopeful note as Joe finds Dr. Song, an experienced oncologist willing to continue his successful treatment rather than leaving him "stranded" by medical orthodoxy.
For anyone facing serious illness or interested in medical innovation, this episode offers both practical insights and renewed hope that even entrenched medical paradigms can shift when compelling evidence and dedicated advocates refuse to accept the status quo.
Ready to learn more about methionine restriction and cancer treatment alternatives? Join the Sunday afternoon patient group call—link in the episode description.
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Here is the link for Sunday's 4 pm Pacific time Zoom meeting
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, joe Grumbine, excuse me, and today we have a very special guest with us. Dr Robert Hoffman is back with us. Robert, how are you doing today? I'm doing great, joe, glad to be here. It's always great to have you with us, thank you.
Speaker 1:Now we got a lot to talk about today, but I wanted to start by talking about this symposium that you presented at. And the reason why I want to talk about that is, you know, I've only known you for a few months, but the more I learn about you, the more I'm impressed. The more I learn about you, the more I'm impressed. And as I learn about you know you're, you've dedicated the greater part of your life to this methionine research and developing methioninase and and and studying it and, and, you know, trying to bring this information to the people.
Speaker 1:And you've struggled so much with the information, not the content. You've done great with the content, but you've always, you know, struggled to break through the paradigm of of you know, quote unquote science and where it's at. And we talked last week a little bit about this symposium and they did the NIH this on and they did two sessions over the last month and a half or so. Three, yeah, now they just did the third one and you were able to present and I'm really excited about that because really, you're in a very small group of people that would be the world's experts on this topic. I don't know if anybody you know there's a couple of people that work alongside you in this work but you're really the guy that's pioneered this and you finally got a chance to speak to some fellow scientists and doctors.
Speaker 2:And why don't you tell us a little bit about that, okay, joe. Milestone in going forward with the understanding of methionine addiction, of cancer and applying it to patients. The very fact that the symposium was held by the National Cancer Institute. Ironically, which no one else remembers, the dependence of cancer cells on methionine was discovered at the National Cancer Institute in 1959.
Speaker 2:Of course, nobody at the National Cancer Institute now knows that, but I mentioned that in my short talk yesterday. Nice. So this is the major thing to use, not such a great word. The very fact that this symposium was held is a major milestone. It's the first one ever on methionine dependence restriction of cancer aiming toward therapy, ever held since the very discovery of it by Dr Sugimura and Dr Greenstein's lab at the National Cancer Institute in 1959.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:So were there groundbreaking presentations. I think some of them were really in that direction and I'm hoping that all three sessions were recorded. I'm hoping the National Cancer Institute will be granted permission to post them on their website.
Speaker 1:I think, they will.
Speaker 2:I give enormous credit to Dave and our group cancer patient Dave and our group group who relentlessly contacted the National Cancer Institute until he met the right person, a scientist program director called Dr Dan Shi Shi is X-I and the two of them. Because of the two of them, that program got on, and Dr Shee, once she got going, did momentous work to get this through, to get all the presenters in line for three different sessions, to get the very permission to do this in an atmosphere that the whole NIH is in right now of fear and of everything, including communication with the outside world. So this was so much due to Dave and Dr Shee and this, I think, is a historic thing. So that's where we are. The presentations everyone was good for sure. We were the only ones that talked about the treating patients cancer patients with methioninase. Only we talked about that.
Speaker 1:And how do you think that was received?
Speaker 2:You know, I can say at least not bad. Good, Nobody picked on it. They could have picked on it, because people pick on new things. That's human nature.
Speaker 2:You know the first monkey that tried to walk on two legs all the other monkeys told him to get down on all four, like the rest of us, exactly, you know. So the very fact that nobody came out, and you know, and just said, oh, you shouldn't do that, or whatever, that was a miracle. I think mine was at the very end, the end of the end, so we didn't have that much time for feedback. I'm very curious, when Dave cancer patient Dave goes back to the NCI for his clinical trial checkups, goes back to the NCI for his clinical trial checkups, the feedback he gets. When he was there the last time he was treated like a rock star.
Speaker 2:All the doctors and nurses came in and asked him about they had watched the symposium. They had watched it and there was Dave and telling them all about it. I mean, dave was a rock star and I expect him to be even go beyond Elvis when he goes in. So I'm curious. So I think it was why this was mainly. This symposium was mainly for people at the NIH. This symposium was mainly for people at the NIH. A few outsiders were allowed to tune in but not talk, and those were the leadership of our cancer patient group and Dr Shi. Bless her. Let me talk. I was not one of the group she invited, which were folks that had NIH or NCI, national Cancer Institute, national Cancer Institute grants that she administered. She very graciously let me give my presentation. I think she really wanted people to hear what's going on in the clinic.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic she only allowed me to present published data, so I'm a little bit disappointed I couldn't present yours, which are spectacular, in due time. Huh, in due time, in very short time. Yeah, I'm guessing your paper will be published in a couple months. I love it Anyway. I just think it was a big, big advance and on the way to paradigm shift, but a long way to go. Max Planck, one of the greatest scientists ever, discovered quantum mechanics, and science advances one funeral at a time. We've got a ways to go. There are a lot of folks out there controlling the field who have very different points of view than we do, and that's okay. That's normal human nature. But this was a big step.
Speaker 1:I love it. You know it's interesting no-transcript. In fact, everywhere I go, everybody that sees the timeline and what happened and everybody says, well, you didn't have surgery, how did that go away? And when I explained to them, you know it was this combination of things, it wasn't just this one thing. And everybody just scratches their head and they're blown away. And then I start talking about methionine and they glaze over, they don't know what I'm talking about and everybody's stuck in the sugar paradigm and I just keep talking, I just keep going and little by little that's the way the paradigm changes.
Speaker 1:Joe, I think we're planting seeds along the way, just the way I found you that one doctor came and he was talking about it and it stuck in my head. And when I saw that in my research that word methionine came up, it stuck. It's like wait a minute. I remember hearing about that and I think that's what happens. You just keep planting seeds and eventually some of them start sprouting.
Speaker 1:Now we're going to talk about Dr Song in a minute, but I wanted to bring up something that he said to me and it's an interesting point and I didn't really have a good answer for him and you know when you're trying to prove that a thing works, but it's not working all by itself. We're not claiming that just methionine restriction and methionine is going to cure your cancer. What we're saying is that it enhances other modalities, other treatments, in a dramatic way and can help reduce the side effects along the way. And I believe that that's a lot harder to prove than just saying I've got a drug. It does this thing. And that was what Dr Song said to me. He says well, how can you prove that it works? And I said I don't know, right, and you gave the right answer.
Speaker 2:So this is the stage where we are, like you said, we're just collecting a ton of anecdotal data, uh, and in no case can we say, oh, it, in which we use, uh, methionine a slow methionine diet, in conjunction with other other treatments, even in the oxygen, uh, the you know everything the chemo. We cannot say, oh, it was the methionine ace or the methionine restriction with methionine, a slow methionine diet. We cannot say that is the case, that that was why Joe's tumor melted away 10 days after the start of chemo. But you know what? Somebody like Dr Song or others take a look at that and say, holy scatola, yes, it's mind-blowing, okay. So remarkable.
Speaker 2:That's good enough. And what do we care about right now, Joe? We care about helping the patients. A ton of patients and the ones that get wind of us learn about us. They're all welcome. We're going to try to help them if they want, and that's good. Are we going to come out and write a paper in the new England journal of medicine that we discovered the cure of cancer? No way, no. But it doesn't matter right now, at this stage of the game.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:As Dr Song says, you can't prove it and that's okay. Our proof, our desire is to see patients like you get better, and so this is what's going to happen. Is that going to happen to every patient? No, Some are just too far along. Whatever, Some may have some aspect of their cancer that needs more than we have right now. We're prepared for all of that have right now. We're prepared for all of that. So we're far from having the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars for the clinical trials.
Speaker 2:Dr Krins in the symposium yesterday said oh yeah, you know there'll be a bias between testing a $25 billion drug and some dietary thing. We know that and we know that the drug companies, they ain't interested in this. That's why I said. Thing I said in my short time on the symposium was this is what the National Cancer Institute is for to develop drugs that will help patients or treatments that the drug companies don't want to do because they're not going to get a profit. They need a profit. We understand that. That's good, Go get a profit. But there's some treatments that need to be developed and they're not going to get a profit but they're going to help patients, going to grow and help us further along. It may not happen this year, may not happen next year, but I think we seeded something.
Speaker 2:My only hope is that the current authorities don't destroy the NIH. I've heard now that all grant money has been frozen for the rest of the government fiscal year, which goes to October 1. This is going to hurt a lot of research. It may stop it, it may kill it. So I'm just hoping that the NIH and the National Cancer Institute within it can survive. And if it does and I think it does will, I think it will then I think we have a bright future for our new paradigm. So that's where we are. But you know what? Our little lab, which turns out quite a lot of methioninase, is not supported by the NCI. It's supported by donations of our patients, and there's no limit to that. The more donations, the more we can do. So we're heading forward, no matter what happens.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. Well, I think that it's very promising and, like you just mentioned, your lab and your foundation does not rely on the government for its existence and I really believe that this group that we have, you know that meets on Sunday afternoons, that there's a link to the call on this podcast. I believe it's instrumental and what I've noticed is that everybody that's in the group that has participated for some period of time. I mean, I've only been on this diet for four or five months now, but you know my my results have been remarkable and I've been able to contribute to the group dramatically, but everybody that's been part of it, even though not everybody has gotten the results that I've gotten. I don't think anybody's had any negative results, Like I don't think anybody. There's been no negative effects.
Speaker 2:About 370 patients have taken methionine at least once. There's not been one report of an adverse event, exactly so this we know for sure and I think that's huge, I mean in a clinical trial of a drug, there's these acceptable side effects, acceptable they get enormous.
Speaker 2:They get enormous side effects, right. But these drugs, joe, none of these drugs that are being developed, are real cancer drugs. Right, there are cytotoxic drugs or drugs that modulate the immune system. The only agent I know of that selectively targets the cancer cell is methioninase, I agree, so that's why there's no side effects. Methioninase by itself is not quite strong enough to eliminate cancers such as yours. It needs help, needs chemotherapy help, and that's okay. Chemotherapy for most cancers needs some help, and that's where we're here to help and get results like yours Well.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. I want to shift the conversation a little bit to where we left off with my situation. So last time we talked I had met with the radio oncologist. Oncologist and you know he sympathized with me. But you know they have their standard of care that says when you have this, this is how you treat it. They don't really have a plan B, a plan C, joe that's a very good point.
Speaker 2:I want to interject something. Yes, please, At that point. So I got this message today from Dr Sato, our collaborator in Japan, who runs the MedPet and gives patients a lot of patients methioninase. Here's his note I had contacted him about one of the patients. Thank you for contacting me, Dr Hoffman. It is exhausting that most doctors are unaware that the standard treatment regimen for cancers is fundamentally flawed. It is frustrating that most doctors, unlike you, do not seek to understand the nature of cancer and find new treatments, but instead follow the standard treatment rulebook Exactly no intention of curing the disease. I want to understand the nature of cancer and approach treatment accordingly. I look forward to working with you in the future. He said it all, Joe.
Speaker 1:Yes, agreed, Agreed. And that's exactly what you, Joe. Yes, agreed, Agreed. And that's exactly what you experienced. Yes, exactly. And even when I explained to this doctor that I understood what was going to happen to me if I followed his guidance and I wasn't willing to suffer that outcome especially considering with the cancer that I have, especially considering with the cancer that I have that radiation is likely to not only not permanently solve it but potentially cause additional cancers, and you would get huge, in this case, side effects from that radiation. Yeah, devastating side effects.
Speaker 2:I mean crippling side effects, as your other group, your squamous cell carcinoma group, tells you one after the other, one after another.
Speaker 1:It's just horrific to look at these pictures and to see these people suffer. And I'm beginning to interject some positive things in there, but I'm just taking my time. I'm not to interject some positive things in there, but I'm just taking my time. I'm not, you know, pushing myself in. So after that, you know, of course, we discussed, you know, trying to find an answer. We got Dr Castro that I can reach out to, but he's already made it kind of clear that he wanted me to take the radiation and I understand their point of view. I understand the medical license and the importance and the difficulty of of getting it and maintaining it and and the the risk of losing it or having it affected in a negative way. I get all that. My dad was a surgeon. I I know all of that politics stuff.
Speaker 1:But you mentioned to me about this doctor that you knew 40 years ago and then you reached out to him and got him to agree to see me and I went out there last Tuesday, just a couple of days ago, and had an appointment and when I went to see him, you know, he started asking me the questions and I had brought all my medical records in an email file and I sent that over to him.
Speaker 1:But my wife showed him a picture of me at my worst, right when they were putting the port in, and I had this gigantic, horrific monster sticking out of my neck.
Speaker 1:And he asked how long ago that was and I said that was end of April and his eyes got big and he he's like, okay, you know, he, you can see me now, and there's barely, you know, there's a little bit of a, a couple of swollen lymph nodes, and that's all I got left. And you know, in that short period of time, without a surgery, it's that that's unheard of, it doesn't? You know? People don't have that happen. And so he asked me to tell the story and I told him about, you know, what we did. And it's interesting because when I mentioned and this is where you really come in, because when I was struggling and trying to get, you know, I almost went and did the radiation because I didn't know better and fortunately my dental work got in the way and it slowed me down to the point where I wasn't getting the results I needed and I wasn't getting the dental clearance and you came up with this notion of a neoadjuvant chemo solution.
Speaker 2:That's not my notion. I mean, that's out there.
Speaker 1:You brought it to my attention, though, and you brought it to me, and when I heard it it made sense in a way that I'm glad I got it, because that was critical the way that it was presented, because the standard of care they've got this rule book that says if this, then that, if this, then that. But there's a place in this rule book for a neoadjuvant solution, and by that I mean a pre-finishing treatment, whether it's surgery, radiation, chemo, whatever. This is like an early treatment to reduce the size of the tumor so that you can do the other treatment. And that was the only reason why this oncologist accepted it was because of the way I presented it. If I presented it to her as an answer to say I think I can do it without the radiation, I don't think she would have accepted it. But because we came at it this way and said, hey, do the chemo first, then we'll see about the radiation. Exactly, and this doctor's song, he got it right away. He's like, wow, that was brilliant, that cause he knew when.
Speaker 1:When I told him about what they wanted to do, he knew all about the treatment and he knew all about it, and his words were it's a murderous system. He said that he used that word murderous, like he understood he got angry that they would not listen to me, that they didn't want to. He says that they would not listen to me, that they didn't want to. He says look at how well this worked. He says why wouldn't you keep going? And I said well, they only authorized three infusions and even though the book said I could take up to six and who knows, I could probably take more than that, but I know that the guidelines would say I could have six infusions. And he just got upset and while we were talking he kept saying you know you were right and they're wrong. He must have said that half a dozen times throughout our conversation.
Speaker 1:And I told him the drugs that I took in the infusion and he was very like. He knew this guy's been an oncologist for 50 years, he knows his stuff and he recognized the cocktail. Everything was in line with him and he's like this is a good idea. Why wouldn't they continue? And he was visibly upset with this. But then when I thought, okay, well then can you treat me? And he said, he changed his tone and I was a little disheartened because he said you know, you live so far away. I'm about an hour and a half away from his office and he says you know, the problem I have is, if there was a complication, maybe you got short of breath or you had a heart palpitations or something because of the chemo.
Speaker 1:Because this is not an easy chemo, it's not a light chemo, it's a heavy duty. It kicked my butt but I powered through it and I said you know, I got through it in the most weakened state I've ever been in. When I started that chemotherapy I had lost a huge amount of weight, I was weak, cancer was grown. He classified it at stage 4A, which is pretty bad. If you've got cancer, that's not what you want, which is pretty bad. If you've got cancer, that's not what you want. And this is a very aggressive, mean, capable cancer that would have kept going had we not stopped it. And he said you know, I just we got to find you an oncologist nearby that will do this. And I got disheartened because I'm like well, how am I going to find somebody that will listen to me? Find another Tom song, exactly.
Speaker 1:And then when he asked me, I think what switched it to him, he said well, how long has it been since you had your last infusion. I said it's been over six weeks now I need to get going, otherwise this thing's going to get a chance to to come back and and he got that like he. He he knows the severity of what I was, what I'm up against, and that we have a window of time to to do this the best way, not saying that we can't accomplish it if I waited three or six months, but it's just going to be more difficult the longer we wait. And if you wouldn't have found anybody that would do it, joe, difficult the longer we wait, and you wouldn't have found anybody that would do it. Joe, I know, and that's what I think he's. I think he started thinking about that because at first he said, well, if you find somebody, I'll do the recommendation and I'll explain it to him. But then I was like, well, where do I start? Like what do I look for? How am I going to find somebody that will look outside of the standard of care? Nobody's going to do that.
Speaker 1:And then the next thing I know his nurse is saying you said you have a port. Yeah, can you show it to me? I lifted up my shirt. She comes at me with a swab, she starts cleaning it off. Next thing I know he walks in with a blood test kit and he's punching into my port pulling blood out and I'm shaking my head, going, what's he doing? I thought he was just referring me to somebody else that I don't have. And then the next thing I know he's talking to the, his assistant, about, um, the five day for the five flow uracil uh pump, and he's going well, we got to do it either Monday or Friday and he was. He was talking about know when. And I go, what's going on? Are you gonna, are you gonna, treat me? He says I'm not gonna leave you stranded. Those were his words, wonderful words, joe.
Speaker 1:I know you're stranded and and my heart just filled up again because I was like I don't know what I'm gonna do. You know, I might have to go down to Mexico. I got to try to figure this out myself and I just, you know it's it's. It's a difficult world and anyways, at the end of the day, I think what he's doing since this time it's been two days now and he plugged me into his, his portal, so I'm in his system now. I just saw the the lab test results. I think he's getting it cleared through insurance right now, before he schedules it. So I sent him an email today just asking what's going on where we're at. Thank you, he's not real good at responding to emails. I'll call him tomorrow if I don't hear him. Yeah, but um, it sounds like he's going to treat me.
Speaker 2:He's going to treat you Joe.
Speaker 1:And I think that even if I had a problem with the insurance, I don't think these drugs are expensive, like the immunotherapy. Oh no, these are the $10 drugs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I could just bite the bullet. They're all generic, all real simple, but they're the workhorses of the field.
Speaker 1:I agree. So that's where we're at now. I have a renewed hope, and my answer is knock this thing out. I still got two lymph nodes that have got some swelling to them and I just need to knock this thing out, finish it off, and then we'll come up with some sort of a maintenance solution once we do that.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're going to go to Japan. Oh, yes, I am.
Speaker 1:Yes, and then where we stand? Exactly, exactly so I couldn't be more excited. But all in all, robert, I just I want to express my gratitude because your dedication to this work and your willingness to sacrifice so much of your time and energy to helping others and it's been instrumental in my journey and solving and finding these problems. And you know, even when things were tough and ugly, you never like my dentist.
Speaker 1:When I went to go see him, he shook his head and says oh, I'm so sorry, like I was going to die tomorrow. I'm like, are you kidding me? Get me out of here, I don't want to talk to this guy. And and you know even the other doctors, the guy that did my biopsy. He was like, oh man, this is bad. I'm like, why are you talking to me like this? You're supposed to be the guy that's going to help me. And and I, you know I don't respond to that. I respond to let's come up and find an answer. And that's all you've ever done. And when things were ugly, he says, you know what, let's dig in and let's find some answers and if that doesn't work, we'll find another one. And I, you know, I, it's a rare um human trait to be able to just keep going forward, and I possess it myself, but I didn't have all the answers, and so it was really comforting and just I'm so grateful for all of those things. I just want to make sure you're very aware of that.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, joe, I sure appreciate it. Well, and, like I said, but just understand that you're a superstar and, like I said, just understand that you're a superstar. I mean people. I mean, did you see the reaction of Dr Lee in the lab? Oh yeah. Who ferments? Oh yeah. Did you see that reaction?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I thought he was going to faint everywhere I go, I'm sure I saw when he saw Joe 1.0's photo Exactly, exactly, exactly, and anybody who sees it you know it's just this night and day. Like you can't imagine. You're such a wonderful poster boy. Exactly, wow. So I'm in a unique position to be able to tell my story in a way that nobody can turn their head.
Speaker 2:You don't have to tell it, you just show it Exactly.
Speaker 1:Show your story, I love it. You just show it Exactly. Show your story, I love it, I love it. Well, robert, it's a pleasure to walk down this journey with you, and I believe that we're changing this paradigm. And it's not happening. We are, we're changing it, we're making a difference and there's going to be a lot of people that are going to have not only a better quality of life, but actually a longer life as a result of this work that we're doing and they'll.
Speaker 2:They'll be our advocates, our angels going out there exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:All right, robert. Well, always a pleasure, and I look forward to sunday's meeting me too and, and and.
Speaker 2:the folks are going to want to know this story too.
Speaker 1:You bet, you bet, and I will update you as soon as I get my appointment for the next.
Speaker 2:It may take a little while, I'm just going to keep up A little bit overwhelmed, yeah, and this insurance.
Speaker 1:You know, we know what that's all about.
Speaker 1:It took him a couple of weeks, you'll get there. It took a couple of weeks to get my port approved, so it's not again. I'm staying strong to my diet. I'm staying strong to the methionine A's Still doing all my other treatments and it's not getting worse. So you're holding your own, you bet. You bet All right, robert. Well, thank you once again for joining us. Thank you, listeners. It was a pleasure to be on. You bet we will see you all next time. You bet I'll be here. Awesome.
