Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
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Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
Beyond Standard Care: Rewriting the Cancer Treatment Playbook with Dr Robert Hoffman
What happens when you refuse to accept the standard cancer treatment plan? Joe Grumbine's remarkable journey proves that taking ownership of your health decisions can lead to extraordinary results.
When Joe was diagnosed with advanced squamous cell head and neck cancer, doctors immediately recommended aggressive radiation and high-dose chemotherapy. Instead of simply following this prescribed path, Joe partnered with Dr. Robert Hoffman to create a personalized "chemo cocktail" combined with a methionine-restricted diet, enzyme supplementation, and oxygenating therapies.
The results have been nothing short of miraculous. After just seven weeks, Joe's tumor dramatically reduced in size, and his NavDx test measuring viral markers dropped from 24,000 to zero after just one treatment round. His oncologist was visibly shocked during their video consultation when reviewing these results.
Throughout their conversation, Dr. Hoffman emphasizes that Joe's approach works because it's systemic – addressing cancer throughout the entire body rather than just at the tumor site. This is crucial because the real danger isn't local recurrence but distant metastasis, particularly to the lungs. The methionine restriction specifically targets cancer cells' unique metabolic requirements, essentially starving them while the modified chemotherapy regimen delivers the knockout punch.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is how it balances respect for conventional medicine with the courage to question standard protocols. Joe didn't reject medical expertise – he engaged with it thoughtfully, researched alternatives, and presented a well-reasoned plan that his oncologist ultimately supported. His story demonstrates that patients can and should be active participants in their treatment decisions.
Ready to take control of your health journey? Listen now and discover how combining evidence-based conventional treatments with carefully selected complementary approaches could potentially yield outcomes far superior to either strategy alone.
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Here is the link for Sunday's 4 pm Pacific time Zoom meeting
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, and today we have back in the studio Dr Robert Hoffman. Robert, welcome back. How are you doing today? Thank you, Joe, Always glad to be here. You just got back from another international trip. How did?
Speaker 2:that go. Yep, and I survived it All right. That's the most important part. So you're doing better, better. You're just continuing to just melt that tumor away.
Speaker 1:It's just, you know, I looked at pictures, uh, about a year ago, and then I just looked at some pictures about a year and a half ago and I've rewound this thing about a year and a half in seven weeks. It's pretty amazing. This last round was a little bit, you know, I won't say tough because I'm out there working in the yard, it's just to get so tired. It really takes, you're taking a big dose.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:People ask me is this a low?
Speaker 2:dose that's what it takes.
Speaker 1:Hell. No, this is not a low dose, this is a big old dose, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean we're not doing Dr Feelgood, you know, oh no, We've got to get rid of this thing.
Speaker 1:But you know what? I'm sleeping fine and I get out there and I work for a little while. I feel tired, I come in, take a nap. It's no big deal. There you go, there you go. You just adjust your life. Life and you know, this has all been about priorities and this is the most important thing is getting this thing gone and getting back to health, whatever it costs me, whether it's my hair or some dollars or some inconveniences, who cares? Right, that's absolutely correct and you know we were talking about on the meeting last week and I want to really impress on the listeners. This meeting is so important If you have cancer or if you know somebody who does.
Speaker 1:This is a Zoom call that people from all around the world are joining and they're sharing their life experiences with this notion of a methionine-restricted diet, methioninase as a way to manage it a little bit. People are talking about, you know, these are people that were diagnosed terminal years ago and they're still with us. They're still alive and healthy. These are people that had tumors that they were told had to be operated on, radiated, and they didn't do those things. They did these other things that we're talking about and they're today still living a cancer-free life and I'm the poster boy today. I've jumped into this arena only a few months ago. I embraced this diet, I've embraced this enzyme and several other tricks, if you will, oxygenating things, and we came up with this chemo cocktail not the one that the doctors came. The doctors came to me with radiation and chemo high doses of both and I just really felt in my gut that radiation is going to cause me more problems than it's going to help and, plus, I couldn't get it quick enough because I had some dental issues and Dr Hoffman and I came up with this cocktail of chemo and I presented to them as a neoadjuvant sort of a precursory treatment to the other things they wanted to do. They accepted it and we've knocked this thing down to a fraction of what it was and every day I take pictures of it and Dr Hoffa is running a case study on this thing. In fact, I wanted to tell you, I requested, I told you the last time we talked, talked.
Speaker 1:I was talking to the medical oncologist the one who's overseeing the chemo, and I had just gotten a new uh blood work done. They call it a navdax and it's a. It's a measure of the viral markers that cause this cancer, and the first time I had it done was in I believe it was january, and the number was up at like 24 000. I don't know if that's what the measure of units is, but 24 000 is a number to go by. And today, or this last one I got about a week ago oh no, no, I actually got the last one after just after the first round of chemo. All right, it was they. I took it as I was getting ready to do the second infusion and it took a few weeks to get back. So I'm doing.
Speaker 1:I was doing these cycles every three weeks. So last week I had a video conference with her and I asked you know, how did that last scan come up? She opened it up and I saw her eyes kind of get big and she's like whoa and uh, says what's what's going on, and she goes it says zero, let me go back and double check that. And she went back and read through everything and it went from 24,000 to zero. And that was just the first session was completed and I'm now I just finished taking the third session.
Speaker 1:So the plan right now is, after this is done for Saturday, they take the pump off of me. I'll be completed with all three drugs and and I'm continuing, you know, this very restrictive diet. I'm taking the methioninease and if I go even off a little bit off the chart, I double up the methioninease. So I'm not giving this cancer anything to eat and any way to replicate, and this chemo is just tearing it apart. And so they're going to be doing a scan what do they call it, a contrast CT scan on June 30th and then after that we're going to discuss the next steps.
Speaker 1:And I presented to her the idea of maintenance chemo and even, in case this didn't do what we wanted, some other drugs that might be a way forward. But she kind of dug in her heels and you know I presented a neoadjuvant solution, which is a precursor, not a finished solution, and I we even talked to her about, you know that identifying it as being gone, essentially. But she said well, you can't really do that without a surgery because this thing was so prolific that we can't do a biopsy of all these different places. We have to be able to go in and see it and I, you know I'm working with her when she's right, you know, I asked for a low dose on the CT scan and she says well, if I do that, it's not going to necessarily tell us what we need. I agreed with her.
Speaker 1:I said you know what? I'm not going to fight you on any of this. I'm just trying to get the most good with the least amount of harm, and that's all. And if you tell me that there's a reason, I'll work with you. You need a normal CT, joe? Yeah, and I'm fine with that. I just have to propose the notion, if there's a safer way forward for me, that we're going to take it. Nothing's going to happen to you from the CT, don't worry about it. Yeah, and I'm okay. I just know I everything's at stake here and I'm trying to come out of this knowing that I made the best choices possible. So that's kind of where we left off, and you know. Let me give you a couple of thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yes, please, your medical oncologist and your radio, your radiological oncologist whatever you want to call him, radiological oncologist or whatever you want to call him are kind of saying the standard is to get that radiation. But the danger, joe, for you is not the local recurrence, the danger is that it will recur distantly, especially in the lungs. So that's why I that it will recur distantly, especially in the lungs. Right so that's why I am very much hoping that you can get some good chemo as a maintenance chemo.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Keep this thing from recurring at a distance site, especially the lungs. I agree, this is the problem of squamous cell head and neck cancer Metastasis to the lungs. So right now your lungs are clean, your tumor's going away and we, you know, we, we got to keep this guy down on the you know just down. We got to keep it from rising up Absolutely. You know, just stopping everything now and no, that's not going to work. So that's why we need a systemic. Methioninase, of course, is systemic. The low methionine diet is systemic, the ivermectin is systemic. All good, all good Doing all those things.
Speaker 2:We need some chemo. In my opinion, we need some chemo in the mix, I agree. So, just like Chihiro, she keeps that thing from coming back. So let's get the scans, let's you and I will have a talk, and then I think it's it'll be time to talk again with Dr Castro. I agree, put it straight to him I want some maintenance chemo prescribed, something for me. I want it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, I want it. What I'm trying to do is I just reached out to the medical oncologist to get a set of the last blood work so that I can send both of those tests to you and that's extremely.
Speaker 2:Your blood work is a great result. It's unbelievable. But we've got to keep it that way. Joe, I agree, and no matter what your blood work says, no matter even what the CT scan says, there's cancer cells around, there's for sure. I agree.
Speaker 1:We've got to keep them down. No, I'm right there with you and I agree. As much as I was opposed to this chemo, I look and see what it did and I look at the results and really the toll it's taken on me is minimal.
Speaker 2:We think the chemo is working much better because you're combining it with methionine restriction. That's consistent with what we've done in the lab for 40 years on that Consistent what we've seen in other patients. By the way, scott Davies he had his med pet completely negative. Scott is tumor-free and I'm begging him to get maintenance chemo and he agrees.
Speaker 1:Good good, it sounds like he's got the right attitude. He does.
Speaker 2:It's not a coincidence that Scott got this great result because he has a fantastic attitude, huge. He's taken everything possible to get that result.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, this doesn't just happen. This happens with a huge amount of effort, people with cancer have to take it seriously.
Speaker 2:It's a life-threatening disease every day and it's got to be kept down.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I spoke with a woman the other day and she heard about me and the things that I've been doing and her son is 27 years old and he's got non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and it's metastasized and he is, you know, they're religious people and they believe in miracles and all this stuff. And I said, listen, a miracle doesn't happen just because you want it. Miracle happens because you go out and make it happen. And I said, you know, I don't think you should worry about anything. I think you should take it seriously and approach it as something that will take your life if you don't. And worry doesn't help you, but focus does. And I had a nice long talk with her and I told her about all these things that I've done and I told her about our meeting and I told her about you, I sent her all the links and stuff. And she says she's, you know, going to try to get through to her son.
Speaker 1:The severe or the, just the yeah, I mean this is. This is the most daunting thing that could ever come at you. It's the most important problem you could ever have to solve. And to sit there and go I'm not worried about it, it's just basically closing your eyes and jumping off a cliff and you know she's, she's going to try to get, I said, but she can't do it for him. You know mom can't fix her son, who's 27 years old, and I, I hope that you know. She says that you know I was inspiring and she says that she's really motivated and she's going to try to get him to talk to me and I hope he does. But that's, you're right, the people that succeed. You got to have it as the most important thing in your life. You got to own it and realize that you know you're the only one that can solve this. All the people, the doctors and the ideas they'll have bits and pieces. Some of them might have good answers, but some might have bad answers and you got to figure that out.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So I'm like you. I want to move as far as I can ahead, even just in my mind, as a solution. And you know I've got a few more days of this last round. Like I said, I've weathered it really well. I didn't even get any sores in my mouth this time, and three weeks after that they're going to do the scan. But as soon as we get the scan done, I really want to and another blood test. Yeah, yeah, I think they're going to do the blood test and the scan about the same time. So we'll have yeah and we'll send that along to Dr Castro.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, we don't ask them. We tell them we want, we want maintenance chemo. Could you please prescribe what you think?
Speaker 1:is best for us. Exactly, that's where I'm at, because I know the last time you want you got to tell the doc what you want. This is what I want. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I have no problem doing that, as you well know. I know the last time we talked, I talked to Dr Castro. You know he was pretty much in agreements with the radiation and he thought that you know that's their standard of care and they're not going to go off of that. And you know again, like you and I've said, this is I'm the one who's hiring them, not the other way around.
Speaker 2:You know again, like you, and I say I'm the one who's hiring them, not the other way around. Well, the problem what's radiation going to solve? Right now, I agree, you're practically tumor-free at the local site, so you get more. You get all this burn from the radiation there. And if there's cells that have already moved out to various parts in the body, already moved out to various parts in the body and and and you can say that that's 99.9 percent that it's happened, what's the, what's the radiotherapy going to do to that when you just put it on your neck? We need systemic, I totally need systemic therapy to prevent these cancer cells that have escaped from your primary tumor from growing elsewhere.
Speaker 1:That's what we need, 100% and that's what got me. It was like okay, the whole idea. Luckily or fortunately, when they did the last CT scan it showed it had not moved and I believe it still hasn't. Well, it's not detectable by CT?
Speaker 2:You don't have any distant tumors, but you can just bet there's cancer cells floating around in your blood. With all that Looking for a place, to the viruses that were picked up before they're out there.
Speaker 1:I agree, I agree and I also agree with the whole systemic notion. That's why you know these oxygen therapies I do, they're systemic. The fasting it's systemic, the diet, it goes everywhere. There's no place it doesn't go. So I'm trying to create an environment where the cancer doesn't have a place to land but inevitably, you know, know, something goes away or something you know you let up, or inevitably there's a place where it finds its way, not if you, not if you don't let up. Exactly. Well, I have no intention of letting up. I tell you this is my life now and, yeah, I'm not, uh, I don't have any, any, any false illusions, that you know.
Speaker 1:It's funny that the medical oncologist I forget the, what, the term, what is her name? Dr Nabar Hang on, n-a-b-a-r. I will, I'll look it up, her first name and I'll send you the information. Would you please name and I'll send you the the information please. She's a little indian lady or some middle eastern and she's very. You know she, she communicates well and you know again, I don't even fault these guys. They're trained away, they learn a certain thing and that's what they're, that's their expertise. They're not, they're not necessary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but she was flexible enough to let you have your adjuvant chemo Absolutely, and the other 99% of them wouldn't let you do that.
Speaker 1:You're right, and I couldn't have done it without her. I can't just go and order those drugs. And so that you know, for me I think, even if we come to a parting of ways she was instrumental, I don't think you'll have a parting of ways Joe. You'll stay with her.
Speaker 2:But just because if you get a prescription of something to take doesn't mean you part the ways from her. You stay in touch and get your periodic scans and stuff like that. You still need her.
Speaker 1:I still got this port in me. So until they take it, don't take it out. Oh no, no, no, no, I'm not doing anything like that. I'm, I'm, I'm prepared for the long haul on this, whatever there you go, you need to do I.
Speaker 1:I'm not going anywhere and I plan to outlive my kids if I have the opportunity, and you know, that's that's that's where I'm at. I really believe that I've got the ability to help a lot of people and I believe I have an ability to help your work, and I think that's important. Well, you're already helping it.
Speaker 2:Joe, You're such a great example.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that that's a thing that, as people realize, I've learned a lot from you.
Speaker 1:Well, that's how it's supposed to be, my friend. I think we're all supposed to learn from each other and grow from each other, and when there's something important, this is important work. This is literally changing the paradigm of medical approach to cancer and I believe that if this worked this way for me I mean the listeners who are maybe hearing this for the first time, you know, the listeners who are maybe hearing this for the first time you got to understand I was facing. I don't know how many more days I would have gone without this turning it around before it got really critical. I mean, I was getting choked out. I wasn't sleeping, I could hardly walk around my yard without getting dizzy. I was getting weaker and weaker in spite of all the things I was doing, and it wasn't enough. And I don't know.
Speaker 1:You know it was not a very good situation and because of these things that have happened within, it's been seven weeks and it's reversed itself to the point where anybody who sees me today, that has seen me months ago, their eyes open up, wide open they don't know what to say. It's not just this tumor shrunk. My energy is back, I'm stronger, I'm vital. I'm not 100%, but I'm gaining on it every day. Whatever it is I did, somebody can't argue with that, they can't deny it and so that gives me a voice. And so I can talk to any doctor, I can talk to any scientist, I can talk to any patient, and I can just tell them what I know, which is what I've done and what I saw, and I think that's important. I think it's very important. So I'm looking forward to, you know, getting this final blood work. Obviously, I'm a little, you know. I'm cautiously optimistic, I'm confident that I'm going to get what I want. But until you see it, you're going to get what you want, because we're not going to stop trying to get it.
Speaker 2:If Dr Castro doesn't come through, we'll find somebody else. I agree, even a plain old doc can prescribe any medicine. I agree, you don't have to be an oncologist to prescribe these drugs. A licensed physician can prescribe any FDA any.
Speaker 1:Any fda approved drug, no problem and you know, especially if we come up with an oral solution that I don't need to have, like chihiro, maybe you'll take chihiro's drug.
Speaker 2:It's probably active against any cancer and she's hanging in there with it, um, and she's. You know, she keeps coming up with the negative scans.
Speaker 1:We'll figure it out. No-transcript. The blood work. I think I can order most of that myself. I don't think most of it.
Speaker 2:Well, you've got life extension. It lets you order most things.
Speaker 1:Right. So I mean in the worst of all cases, and you can go down.
Speaker 2:Another option, joe, is to go down to Tijuana. That's absolutely true. You know that wonderful pharmacy in the middle there. I forgot it's Mas's, mas, something it translates to most cheap. Yeah, there you go. You can get every drug there. A couple things you have to go upstairs and pay $5 to the doctor and he gives you a prescription. 95% of the stuff downstairs is open for just pay. If we have to, you'll go go there, exactly 100. We're going to get something. It's going to be good for you one way or another. You're not going to. Nobody's going to prescribe it.
Speaker 1:We've got the alternative of tijuana I totally agree and I I think that's again another important thing.
Speaker 2:You know, people get told, oh well, you can't do that, and then they just you know, it's very liberating, very liberating, yeah, you know, I mean, they let in mexico, they let people decide for themselves what the heck I I've been down there before and I'll go down again if I need to, and you know that's the end.
Speaker 1:That's that's really what it comes down to and and I think that's the big message here is for people to consider taking ownership of your own health. You know, we people go to doctor.
Speaker 2:No other way. Joe, I know you know if we just depended on the doctors, especially in cancer, you know most of us wouldn't make it. We need them, they're necessary, but they're not sufficient. We need the standard care, but we need more. Exactly, we need more than the standard. The standard care is like Dr Exame says you take the standard care and you get the standard outcome Right. The standard outcome for almost all metastatic cancer is to die Right.
Speaker 1:You got five years and then you're gone. Well you're lucky if you get five for most of them. Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:A few months.
Speaker 1:And that's not even you know. If you think about it, most of these standard of care procedures, they don't enhance your quality of life at all.
Speaker 2:In fact they know they're tough medicine but we need them. We like the chemo you got was standard. It would have been more standard if you would have had the radiation on top of it, but it was standard and it did great. And why did it did great? Because you're doing all these other things Exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:You know, if you just took those three drugs alone, I don't know what your outcome would have been. We don't know, it's not a controlled experiment, but we could at least have a good guess it wouldn't be nearly what we see, I'm confident it would have not.
Speaker 1:it would have not done what it did and I would have. We need these chemo drugs.
Speaker 2:We need them, I agree, and people who deny chemo are just denying their life.
Speaker 1:And the one thing the doctor did say when I presented to her some of the drug solutions that I came up with, she goes you know, there's a lot of good drugs out there, but just in her mind this was not going to solve the problem. I needed the radiation.
Speaker 2:So I believe we I believe, and that's her experience, joe, and that would have been the same for you if you weren't on methionine restriction and all the other things you're doing. No, she's right. Well, and also I just she doesn't know anything about beyond what the drugs do. She doesn't know, she and she doesn't have the mind to learn because she's completely trapped within the guidelines. Uh, she can't. She went as far as she could go, kind of blessing your uh plan, which was a miracle. It was great. We love her for that.
Speaker 1:She's blown away by it, so don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:You stay with her, joe, she's an angel.
Speaker 1:You stay with her. I have no.
Speaker 2:For all your subsequent checkups and stuff. We need her.
Speaker 1:I totally agree. I have confidence that she has my best interest in mind. She just does. Of course she does. Of course she does. You know, I think one of the things is that you know, when I'm presenting things to her, some of them are in different stages, you know, some of them are still in trials, some of them are. Some of them are still in trial, some of them are old information, and it's a mix of different things that I've brought to her, including that blood test that you sent to me, and she says well, you know, this NavDx is really good for what you have.
Speaker 2:It's great for now and I have something. I'll send this to you by email we have another test that's very, very, um, uh, very high resolution, to look for, uh, rare cancer cells floating around. So, um, it's all about the circulating cancer cells, circulating cancer dna. Um, these are great tests. Meanwhile, you've got the virus test. That's good enough for now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for me, I mean I think that as far as monitoring and testing, I'm going to do whatever I can, because I think that you know the idea is okay. So I get this thing down to zero as far as we know. That's really. What I can claim is that, as far as we know, we're at zero and if they had their way, they want to come in and preemptively radiate and give me more chemo that will supposedly keep it from coming back. But, as you just said, well, what if it's already floating in my blood and it lands away from there, which it's most likely to do, primarily in my lungs?
Speaker 1:I'm not radiating my lungs. No, you can't. You can't radiate your whole body, exactly. So so for me, the logic would say that I'm way better spending my time watching and and and looking at any possible marker that there is and keeping an eye on it every month, every three months, absolutely and that's why I like blood tests, that's why I like cp scans and then, if you see anything go moving at all, then we get aggressive right away.
Speaker 1:And yeah, that's a big difference. See, remember, dr hoffman, when I finally took action, I already had a lump sticking out of my neck. That thing was billions of cells and it already had built an infrastructure. I had a city in my neck that I tried to had to get rid of. If I had done this on some kind of an early scan two, three years ago, it might have been a totally different battle, but it was because I had let it go so far.
Speaker 1:Well, now the fact that it has already been there and going away, I have this problem of circulating tumor cells that are never going to really go away, but I just can't give them away a place to land. And it's an easier battle and it's one that we can watch carefully and never give it a chance to do what it did before. So I'm in a much better position today than I ever was, and I'm never going to let it get to a worse position, you bet. Well, I know we're about burned out of time, but I did want to touch on a thing and maybe there's a way that you can give a really quick overlook, or maybe we can get into it next time. No, go ahead, give me a shot at it and we'll see.
Speaker 1:When people talk about things like FDA trials and things like that, I know there's different stages. There's stage you know there's. There's first, second, third types of trials. Can you just maybe give a a quick outline of of what each of these mean as as okay, so uh there are what are called phase one, phase two, phase three, right trials.
Speaker 2:Phase one is basically a toleration test. Okay, they give you three different doses, escalating doses and see how much you can tolerate. That's phase one, okay, phase two is a test against historical results. Okay, everybody knows the results of 5-fluorouracil. We got a new one and we're going to compare it with the historical results of 5-fluorouracil. We got a new one and we're going to compare it with the historical results of 5-fluorouracil. Wonderful, that's phase two. That's not a toleration test, it's an efficacy test, but it's not controlled. It's against historical data. Okay, phase three, it's the drug against placebo. You don't know if you're going to get the placebo or the drug and hundreds and hundreds of patients. And that's what phase three is all about. What do I tell patients? Clinical trials you become a human mouse and the number of patients. One of the saddest things I've experienced was this gentleman who was going to go on methionine AIDS for his little girl with brain cancer, but the doctor convinced him to go on this clinical trial and would not allow him to take the methionine.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:And he, oh yeah, clinical trial man, that's what I want, oh, no. And he oh yeah, clinical trial man, that's what I want. And you know, I just had to shut my mouth right. So you're, you're a human mouse, and most of these trials nobody knows if they're good or not. Hey, why should you do that when you can take drugs which have a long, long history of what they can do and what they can't do? And so I'm pretty much against putting people on a clinical trial. Not totally. If I see something that the preclinical studies are so fantastic, okay, okay, we can try. Studies are so fantastic Okay, okay, we can try. But generally you're just a mouse, and you're just a mouse that's owned by the pharmaceutical company, you know, trying to develop their next trillion-dollar drug, and that's okay, I'm all for that.
Speaker 1:But patients who are under my care, I care about them and I don't care about the pharma company. So, and you don't even know if you're getting the placebo or the drug anyway. If you're in phase three, you don't know. And and if that's something that's critical to your volunteering your life for the pharma company, right yeah I agree, I would never do it.
Speaker 1:I would never do it. I would never do it. You know, yeah, I am just ever so grateful for all the hard work that you've done and that you make yourself available. And you're just. You know, everybody I talked to that works with you and has worked with you works with you and has worked with you. We all have the same things to say You're doing amazing work. You are just a jewel of a human. I appreciate everything you're doing.
Speaker 2:You know, for me it's like breathing the air.
Speaker 1:That's how you know it's for real. Yeah, All right. Well, I'm going to be heading up to the mountains this weekend. I will join the call if I have signal Okay if you've got a signal, you join.
Speaker 2:If not, you'll join when you get back from the mountains, enjoy the mountains and celebrate your great result.
Speaker 1:I absolutely will Thank you for joining us and, as always, my pleasure, joe Awesome, and thank you to everybody who's supporting this show, and we'll see you next time.
