Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
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Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
Beyond Conventional: Rethinking Cancer Treatment from Within: with Dr Robert Hoffman
The medical establishment has long proclaimed that sugar feeds cancer, leading patients down a path of extreme carbohydrate restriction and high-protein diets. But what if this fundamental assumption is flawed? In this groundbreaking conversation, Joe Grumbine and Dr. Robert Hoffman explore the revolutionary concept of methionine restriction and how it's creating miraculous results in Joe's own cancer battle.
Joe shares his remarkable transformation—from facing death six weeks ago to witnessing his tumor rapidly shrink while regaining strength and vitality. His journey challenges conventional cancer treatment wisdom by embracing a fruit-filled diet that many would consider dangerous for cancer patients. Dr. Hoffman explains the science behind this counterintuitive approach: cancer cells aren't primarily addicted to glucose but to methionine, an amino acid abundant in animal proteins.
The conversation delves into the fascinating mechanism that makes this approach so effective. Methionine restriction arrests cancer cells during division, making them more vulnerable targets for chemotherapy. This synergistic effect explains why Joe's tumor is responding so dramatically to treatment when previous approaches failed. Through PET scan evidence and clinical outcomes, Dr. Hoffman illustrates why methionine restriction offers a more targeted approach to starving cancer cells than glucose restriction.
We follow Joe's strategic discussions with his oncology team as he advocates for a pathological complete response (PCR) through continued chemotherapy rather than radiation. His story serves as both inspiration and practical roadmap for others facing similar battles. By sharing specific treatment strategies, blood tests to request, and conversations to have with medical providers, this episode provides actionable information for patients seeking alternatives to conventional cancer treatment protocols.
Whether you're battling cancer yourself or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers hope through a scientifically-grounded approach that complements traditional medicine. Tune in to discover how rethinking cancer's nutritional dependencies might transform treatment outcomes and quality of life for patients worldwide. Ready to challenge what you thought you knew about cancer? Listen now and share this potentially life-saving information with those who need it most.
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Hello and welcome back to the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, joe Grumbine, and today we have a very special guest, dr Robert Hoffman. And Robert, welcome back to the show. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2:Thank you, Joe. Always a pleasure to be on your show and so you're international again.
Speaker 1:Tell us what's going on.
Speaker 2:Okay, tell us what's going on. Okay, well, the main purpose of my trip was to conduct some procedures, some paper procedures. We have a subsidiary company, a subsidiary cancer company in Korea, called Metabio, so that was my purpose for this trip. I had to show up in person for it, and it's a nice company. They're doing a lot of good things for the cancer patient, and so that was my purpose for the trip. Of course, I'd rather be back in the laboratory, where I belong, but it's okay, your mission is very strong and you're getting a lot of positive work done.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it means you got to do administrative things, and other times you get a play in the lab right.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right, Joe.
Speaker 1:I totally understand. I do the same thing. I love to formulate and experiment, but most of the time you just got to get out there and work.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:So I have a lot of update to share with you, and I think a lot of this has to do with I've really taken on the mantle of this paradigm. I have come to an understanding and an awareness of the importance of this diet and understanding some things about cancer that just people don't seem to understand. And wherever I go, I hear the same stories. You know, you got to cut the sugar out, you got to cut the carbs out and meanwhile they're eating all this meat and protein. And I cringe now when I hear these things because I just know that's what I was doing when this tumor was growing so rapidly and no matter what I did, it wasn't stopping. And I know that this experience that I've gone through has been life changing. Obviously it's given me a voice and a tool that can get people's attention in a way that maybe not everybody can.
Speaker 1:And today I was able to speak at the Rotary Club on behalf of my nonprofit, where we do the garden therapy and things like that, and we're looking to get some support from them.
Speaker 1:But I was able to tell them my story and you know this has only been a five week, less than six weeks, since I was at death's door. I mean, I was really in a difficult place and I was struggling, you know, in every way possible and we were literally scrambling, trying to come up with answers and get them implemented. And in the last six weeks there's been this, you know, complete miracle that's happened, and I only say miracle because it's miraculous, not that it was necessarily this supernatural thing. It was a really good, solid plan that we executed and did a lot of hard work to cause this miracle to happen. But I was able to tell the story to these people and I was told at the end of this presentation by the Rotary Club that this was the most inspirational story that they've heard from any of their guests they've ever had, and I thought that is so fantastic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is really fantastic.
Speaker 1:Yes, and this is the Rotary Club. They have guests every week on their thing and they're an international organization. And I just thought to myself that is powerful, because after this little presentation, every single one of them came up to me and shook my hand and asked me questions and I thought to myself this is a gift I have the ability to share some truths that I've learned and help some people save their lives and hopefully reach out, and hopefully this message will reach the medical community and practitioners and doctors at one point will listen. And I want to share the story with you. Since we last spoke, it's been a couple of weeks, but this tumor has continued to shrink. I've continued to gain tumor has continued to shrink. I've continued to gain strength and I'm even putting some weight on and still maintaining the diet very strictly. I'm just taking on some more. You know things like potatoes and these glass noodles and things like that that have a little calories, but hitting it with the enzyme, doubling up my methionine A's and just making sure that I don't give it anything to eat.
Speaker 1:But I was thinking and you know I'm always trying to learn more and trying to understand. You know this. Like you say, doctors don't know cancer. They don't know it and you know they try to affect it and change it. But the truth is there's more unknown than there is known about this condition they call cancer and it's unique to every individual that has it. But there are certain things that are a threat of consistency. There are truths that affect it, like the methionine addiction and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:So in this diet I go counter to everything I believed was right and I eat a lot of fruit, and fruit is a big part of my diet right now, and you know where I was coming from with the keto and the sugar removal and all of this fruit was like kryptonite right, it's got a fructose, a double sugar. It's hard for your body, it feeds the cancer. Everything about it was wrong and so I wasn't eating any of it. I was eating a lot of vegetables and a lot of protein. That was primarily my diet. And so, since sitting with the group the four o'clock Sunday group for about three months now, almost four months listening to all the people and their experiences and many of them have been battling and dealing and managing their cancer for many years with this diet and this, these practices you got to listen to them right. You know if the what they're doing is working. You, you, you got to take note of that, which I certainly have, and Dr Exime and all of his strategies, and you know your ideas and all this, and it came to me.
Speaker 1:So, with this chemotherapy that we came up with, it's three drugs. They're potent drugs, not a light dose. I'm having a very meaningful dose and it hits me hard, I know it. But the way chemotherapy works, the way I understand it, is it gets into your bloodstream and attaches to the glucose molecules and it floats around in your, in your bloodstream, and the, the cells that are the most active are the ones that are taking it in the most right and okay, well, the chemo doesn't attach to glucose, okay, um, it gets into the cell by it, gets into all the cells, um, by themselves.
Speaker 2:That's one symptom of getting into all the cells is, you lost your hair, sure, and it had a big effect on the hair, because the hair cells, the cells that produce the hair, hair is not alive anymore, but it's from cells that were formed by living cells, and those cells are the most rapidly dividing in the body, more than almost any cancer. So they're very susceptible to chemotherapy. This type of chemotherapy you're getting, we call it cytotoxic chemotherapy, cell toxic, okay. So, and the cancer cell? Actually, there's not enough of them dividing at any one time, very often, to get the desired effect of killing a lot of them.
Speaker 2:If the cancer cell is not dividing, or any cell that's not dividing, is resistant to the kind of chemo you're getting, resistant, it doesn't affect a non-dividing cell. So the methionine restriction, diet and methioninase, what it does? It selectively arrests the cancer cells when they're trying to divide. So this is the key. So there's more and more cells that are then targets for your chemo because of the methionine restriction. That's the principle, got it? It's really simple. The methionine restriction has an effect on the cancer cells and not the normal cells, that it arrests them when they're trying to divide. They need more methionine to continue their division. They don't have it and by being stuck or arrested in this attempt to divide when they're trying to replicate, their DNA makes them more susceptible to the chemo than they would have been if you weren't on methionine restriction. So that's a point.
Speaker 1:Got it. So do you think that the substantial addition of fruit, which has a lot of sugar in it, in addition to all the fiber and the things I know it gets released at a metered rate, but still I eat a lot of fruit. Do you think that the cancer cells are going to feed off of that? Even if they can't divide, they're still taking in this energy. And do you think that that affects in any way the chemo's ability to get in there and find it?
Speaker 2:No, oh, okay, I think it affects the ability of the chemo to enter the cancer cells. Got it? All cells need sugar, all cells need sugar, all cells need glucose. This is their fuel, their energy source. They need it.
Speaker 2:But in order to kill cancer, you need to find something that the cancer cell needs much more than the normal cells. It's not glucose, it's methionine, right, right. How do we know that? Well, we know it, for example, from your, your great reaction, your great response. That tells us just volumes, absolutely. We also know it by PET imaging. So PET imaging can use a radioactive form of glucose or a radioactive form of methionine and when you compare them head to head and not all, but most, maybe the vast majority you get a better signal from the radioactive methionine PET. Why? Because the difference in the uptake of the radioactive methionine, the requirement in the cancer cells, is much more than the surrounding tissue. So you get a big signal.
Speaker 2:Regarding glucose, you get some signal. The cancer cells seem to need a little bit more glucose than the surrounding tissue, but the signal is often weak. So the addiction to methionine is much greater in the cancer cells than the addiction to glucose. So that's what we want to target. You target glucose. You're going to die, you go into this complete starvation. Glucose is just not targetable. The brain needs more glucose than any cancer Agreed. So glucose is just not a target. And yeah, anything you eat will feed the cancer. But if the cancer is not getting enough methionine, then that overcomes everything. The cancer then gets into big trouble, stops dividing and it becomes the target for the chemotherapy. If the cancer were like a petri dish in the laboratory, we wouldn't need chemo. We could starve the cancer of methionine sufficiently.
Speaker 1:We don't need the chemo.
Speaker 2:But the body is more complex. We can't not. We can't really starve the cancer for methionine like we did we would in a petri dish. So we need chemo to help us out and you're the great example of this oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know I'm going to tell you a little trick that I've done and I know you're probably not going to like it, but I believe it's working. And I only do it generally the day or two after I get the infusion. So I've got two of the chemo drugs in me and the third one is pumping in me for five days. So my bloodstream is full of this stuff and generally I'll fast for the first day afterwards. So I fast for two days before, one day after, and then when I break my fast, usually within 24 hours of breaking the fast I will eat one egg and I'll let it in my system for about an hour and then I'll take. What do you do? For an hour I eat one egg and for about an hour I leave it in my system and I let my body absorb that for an hour, and so I know the cancer is going to go. Ha ha, I got some methionine.
Speaker 2:Not that much. One egg is not that much.
Speaker 1:No, but it's a lot more than it's getting normally, and that's true Something. And then, after that hour, I hit myself with methionine A's and then, about three hours later, I hit it again.
Speaker 2:And there you go.
Speaker 1:I think that's a very, very interesting and good strategy, yeah, so I think what it does and again, it's just my, I'm experimenting on myself and clearly the results are well, are not causing me harm. But I think what it does, even briefly, is it flares it up, causes it to get active, becomes a bigger target, and then I shut it back off again. Well, one time.
Speaker 2:You know, whatever you're doing, joe, it's working so and it's working fantastic yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's my little secret. Uh, chess move that. I play one one time.
Speaker 2:I think it's good yeah, the thing next, joe is um, I, uh, um, worried a little bit, uh, uh, you're going to see the chemo doctor on on monday tomorrow I I do a video conference with the chemo doctor and then monday I get my last infusion okay. So I think you what this? I think you tell her that your target is a pathological complete response. Pathological complete response.
Speaker 2:They abbreviate that. They love abbreviations and acronyms, so you abbreviate that with a lowercase p, uppercase c, uppercase r PCR pathologic, complete response. This is your goal and you think you can get it with the chemo. Of course they're going to have to take a biopsy, uh, but that's, that's okay. Yeah, um, so you tell her that's my goal. I want a pcr okay um p. Pcr has another meaning in molecular biology polymerase chain reaction, but this is pathological. Complete response.
Speaker 1:That means, you take the biopsy.
Speaker 2:The pathologist looks at it under the microscope after a couple procedures and cannot see any more cancer cells. Okay, that's a pathological, complete response. Okay, so you tell her that's what I'm going for and then maybe discuss with her uh, more chemo after after monday yeah, yeah, because that was really my thing you want to get a PCR Right, then I don't know, maybe that's enough to talk about now. Later on we're going to talk about taking some kind of chemo over long periods, perhaps a lifetime, like Chihiro is doing. We call maintenance chemo Right.
Speaker 1:That would likely be an oral situation.
Speaker 2:It has to be something oral, otherwise it's too inconvenient. But I think you tell her you want a pathological complete response. You're going for that with the chemo PCR and maybe ask her maybe you can get more cycles of the present chemo or change the chemo. But I don't think, joe, I don't think, I don't think that you can get a PCR from just these three cycles.
Speaker 1:I think you're probably right. I know that this thing took a lot of time.
Speaker 2:They can do a biopsy on you in a couple of weeks, which is okay. It's okay, they can see, but I think you need more. And she even mentioned that it's possible that this chemo will go all the way. Right, she did, she did, and possibly instead of maybe before the biopsy to get something a very, very high resolution scan like a PET scan, high resolution scan like a PET scan.
Speaker 1:Well, what? What she has already suggested and I think she's putting the order in is this cycle it's a. It's on three weeks cycle. So on Monday I began the third cycle and then, three to four weeks afterwards, she's ordering a scan. Three to four weeks afterwards, she's ordering a scan.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's perfect, joe, let's go for this. But you can maybe start to tell her you're going for the PCR. I will absolutely Look forward to the scan and then we'll see. She would start thinking about either more cycles of this chemo if the scan is not perfect, or more chemo. I don't think I'm just. Since the chemo is working so well, I cannot see why you should have to suffer the big side effects of the radiation. I'm very concerned about that. I don't think you need it, I agree.
Speaker 1:I had a meeting with a radiation oncologist.
Speaker 2:There's more chemo options. You're taking cisplatin, paclitaxel and 5-FU Cisplatin. There's other options for squamous cell head and neck cancer. There's other options for chemo. For example, the classic drug is called methotrexate Methotrexate. Now there's more fancy versions of it, but this is a classic drug. There's no question head and neck cancer is sensitive to it. It's not an oral drug. There are oral versions of 5-FU. They're called pro drugs. You take the pill and the body converts it into 5-FU, but that's later. That's later when we're thinking more about it.
Speaker 1:I have this port anyway. So I mean, if I have to do another cycle of infusions, it's already built in. It's not a I can handle it, Of course.
Speaker 2:But you have to get her agreement for it Agreed and you tell her I think you tell her I'm going for a pathological complete response. That's what I want and I think I can get it with chemo PCR. She'll relate to that, joe. She'll relate to it.
Speaker 1:So I did have. So I guess there's a couple of questions. So I think that you know she ordered three cycles. That must be some kind of a standard.
Speaker 2:It's a guideline.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the question would be if there are more cycles of the same set of drugs, is it likely that it will just be less effective?
Speaker 2:It's a possibility. It's a possibility that the cells can develop some resistance. So it's probably better after these cycles to change the drug Got it, so I will mention the methotrexate you have options. Head and neck cancer has options. So, anyway, you did such a good job to get her on your side and she'll relate to that. You want a PCR, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah and you think you can get it through chemo and maybe, you know, can we start a cycle of something else. Anyway, it's time to start talking with her. She'll probably say, oh, we have to look at the scan, which is okay. But to get her starting to think about what you want is good, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And last week I had a video meeting with a radiation oncologist and I hadn't talked to him since November, so obviously I was in a very different situation. Once again, he saw me and was, you know, duly impressed, and you know he works with the medical oncologist, so he knew what the strategy was. And of course his premise was that you know, the standard of care today is radiation and chem and and typically there's surgery involved. And I said well, I said you know, you're the one who told me surgery might not be a good idea. I told him I says the surgeon said we got to operate and then you said maybe that's not a good idea because it's going to disfigure me and leave a big hole Very bad disfigurement possibly.
Speaker 1:And I and I and I agreed with you and then, and then you know we we were going after the radiation and then, because of the inability to get the dental clearance, we came up with this idea and we went after it and look what's happening, it's working, and, and you know, he agreed and, and. But then he comes back and he says well, listen, our standard of care shows that if you don't get the radiation, there's a very high probability that it's going to come back. But he also acknowledged he goes, but we don't have a model of yours, because the models that we have are generally surgery and then the radiation and chemo, not just chemo by itself. So he said I don't really have a model to work with that is yours. And I says okay, I said listen, can we agree that first of all, my goal is the most amount of good, which is to be cancer free with the least amount of harm? That's all I'm trying to do is save my body and get rid of this cancer. Can you sign on to that? Are you part of that thinking? And he says yeah, I agree with that. I says perfect, so we can work together.
Speaker 1:And I said I said you know, can you understand that this treatment that I'm taking that's working so well, is one that I brought to you. I said I'm not, you know, claiming anything. I'm just saying that you know I brought this to you, you agreed to it, or you got the team agreed to it and look at how well it's working. And I said there's a chance, in my opinion, that we can go all the way with this. And I said, for now, the plan is we're going to run the third cycle, wait three weeks and take a scan and see where we're at. I says can you follow along with that? And at least you know, say let's just wait? I said look, if it comes down to, I don't have another option. I'm not saying I won't do this, I'm just saying I'm trying to avoid it if I can.
Speaker 1:And he, he got on the right page, he agreed to to to sit and wait. He says, listen, my training says that it's not going to be your best choice, but it's your choice. And I says well, I don't want to be adversarial to you, I want to consider us on the team and I want the best option and that's it. So we came to an understanding and I believe that, even though I know it's his training and his opinion that I need this radiation, I am of the opinion that I don't and that we're going to find our way through it without it. And I think that this is going to be the next move. Tomorrow, I'm going to mention the PCR. I'm going to look at you know, a different way forward if we don't hit that mark, because, you know, the truth is, this thing probably took 20 years to make. Am I going to undo it in seven weeks? Probably not, but we're getting close. We're certainly. You know.
Speaker 2:You can't deny these results and we we have as a model uh chihiro. Yes, did the same thing. She did neoadjuvant chemo yes and with the idea that would make the surgery less invasive. And then at the end of her neoadjuvant with her it was three months of one regimen and three months of another regimen, longer than yours. But in the end there was by PET scans, including a methionine PET, no tumor and the surgeon said, oh, we'll operate now. And she said there's nothing there, why are we going?
Speaker 1:to operate. What are you going to operate on?
Speaker 2:And that was the end of that. I love it. So it's very hard for the radiation oncologist to say I'm not going to, I'm trained to do the radiation, that's what I do. Yeah, this man is a thoughtful man, is a good man. Yeah, and he admitted he doesn't have a model like yours where he didn't do the surgery, you just did the neoadjuvant chemo and the thing is going away. So this is out of his experience, exactly.
Speaker 1:And that's exactly what he said.
Speaker 2:It's probably out of the medical oncologist's experience too. It's out of their experience, yes, just as Tihiro's was as well. So, okay, we've got to deal with it.
Speaker 1:We're in a new realm here of that where it didn't happen before, exactly, I'm glad to be the first one to them, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:And you and I know that it's almost surely the fact that you're on methionine restriction oh, absolutely Methioninase that we've got this greatly improved result. We can't prove that, but it sure seems so, and it's out of the radiation oncologist experience. It's out of the medical oncologist experience. Okay, so we just keep going. We're in a, you know, we're in a new realm here of the unknown um, and we're learning as we go along that maybe, uh, there's a new, a new way let's call it a modified way to get a result. So you can start letting her know we're going for the PCR. Yep, we'll do the scan, but please start thinking about either another, some cycles of different chemo, just to make sure.
Speaker 2:And beyond that, the long-term maintenance chemo.
Speaker 1:Is there another drug besides the methotrexate that I should bring to her attention there?
Speaker 2:probably is, joe, and I'm going to ask you to do some homework. Okay, please, next couple of days, look up the chemotherapy experience for squamous cell head and neck cancer. I'm sure there are other drugs. Especially now there's such a big choice of different drugs, I'm sure there's more potential drugs for head and neck cancer.
Speaker 1:I'll dig. Yeah, no worries, I will find them, you know I will.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's good. Yeah, so tell me the magic word PCR.
Speaker 1:Okay, I got it. I got it. Tomorrow at 11 o'clock I'll be on the phone with her video conference, yeah.
Speaker 2:So she may not think you know what PCR is. She may think you're talking about. You say pathological, complete response PCR. That's what I'm going for Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Oh, you know I will.
Speaker 2:But even that, joe, is not perfect, right. There could be cancer cells that are even by pathology under the microscope. They're so sneaky they may not show up in that particular biopsy. That's why I think long, long-term maintenance chemo is really important to prevent this cancer from coming back, any cancer from coming back.
Speaker 1:I'm going to be doing. They just did. They have a blood test that detects the virus load of the virus that's caused by cancer, the virus load and also the circulating cancer DNA. Yeah, she wouldn't order that, but I'm ordering that.
Speaker 2:Negative now, now negative. Yeah, that's for me, I think, when you have more of a tumor, much more than you have, right, you could say I'd sure like to have this test.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also that test that you sent me last week.
Speaker 2:You would order it for me? Yeah, and also that test that you sent me last week. You would order it for me? Yeah, maybe along with the scan at that time. Along with the scan.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, she's already ordering the scan, so I should have that.
Speaker 2:So you want the circulating cancer cells.
Speaker 1:She wouldn't order the circulating tumor CT DNA.
Speaker 2:Yeah, circulating tumor DNA, ct DNA. She would't order the CT DNA. Circulating tumor DNA CT.
Speaker 1:DNA. She would not order that one. I asked her already.
Speaker 2:Say I will. I want it along with the scan.
Speaker 1:I want it, I have no problem. I'm not sure you know that.
Speaker 2:All right, robert. Well, I think at the same time as the scan Joe.
Speaker 1:All right, that's.
Speaker 2:I'm good with, that Plus that last week we have some homework to do over the next couple of days.
Speaker 2:Oh I'll find it To see what is the published experience of different drugs for head and neck cancer? Of course we want to look at the more recent data, more recent publications. I am sure there's more options than just methotrexate. I think the fancy new kind of methotrexate is called something like Methotrexate is called something like Permatrexid. Okay, I'll find it. It's a version of Methotrexate. All right, I'll find it and I'll tell you what I found. You'll find it. You'll find it. You know I will. We need to do our homework in advance of talking to her.
Speaker 1:I'll be doing that tonight. I'll have answers tonight. Okay, okay, joe, all right, robert, well, always a pleasure.
Speaker 2:And you're a great example. I hope millions of people can see your example. Not only is it an inspiration, but it's a roadmap.
Speaker 1:Yes, agreed, that's. What I'm offering is a roadmap. I have a lady that's going to be calling me today and we've been talking back and forth and she's listened to the podcast and I'm going to be counseling her. Her son-in-law has aggressive cancer and she's finally willing to listen to me, so I'm going to walk her through it.
Speaker 2:I'm going to invite her to Sundayay's meeting and they're starting to come to me okay. Well, we can say right in advance that the son-in-law probably we can't promise anything, but probably will benefit from methionine restriction and chemo. The chemo didn't work, yeah, but now we're going to try it with methionine restriction. It's a different ballgame, entirely, entirely.
Speaker 1:It's a complete different animal and I can attest to it 100%. Well you're the great example.
Speaker 2:People say it doesn't work. Well, you say, look at me pal.
Speaker 1:Well, and you have to do it. You see, that's the thing you have to do it, and that's what I know.
Speaker 2:And before you have to, do it, you have to believe in it. Yes, indeed, 100%. To go through all this, what you're going through, you have to have an intellectual commitment to it. It means you've done homework and you've read enough material that's convincing to you. So this is very important. The people who are skeptical, they do it and there's nothing we can do.
Speaker 1:Exactly. No, I agree, I agree. Well, that's the first thing. And you know again, that was the gift of this thing being on the outside. Nobody can deny it when I show them the picture of what it was like the outside. Nobody can deny it when I show them the picture of what it was.
Speaker 2:It's so spectacular yeah.
Speaker 1:And so for me to be able to say this was me six weeks ago and this is me today, they have to say, well, what did you do? And I have to say, yeah, so there, we are all right, robert. Well, I appreciate you being here once again.
Speaker 2:I appreciate all the work For you having me Joe.
Speaker 1:And we'll talk to you Sunday. Great inspiration, excellent. You have a great trip and I'll talk to you Sunday, you bet. Thank you, joe. It's been another edition of the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, joe Grumbine. We'll see you next time. We'll see you next time.
