Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
A podcast about practices to promote healthy lives featuring experts, businesses, and clients: we gather to share our stories about success, failure, exploration, and so much more. Our subscription episodes feature some personal and vulnerable, real-life stories that are sensitive to some of the general public.
Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
Pioneers in Cancer Treatment: When Standard Care Isn't Enough
A revolutionary cancer treatment story unfolds on this episode as host Joe Grumbine shares stunning progress in his personal battle against head and neck cancer. The tumor that once dominated his appearance has shrunk dramatically—now less than a third of its original size—thanks to a groundbreaking approach combining strategic fasting, methionine restriction, and targeted chemotherapy.
Joined by renowned cancer researcher Dr. Robert Hoffman, Joe reveals how his oncologist was "blown away" by his results. The medical team that initially pushed for aggressive radiation and surgery now watches in amazement as Joe's carefully researched alternative protocol delivers remarkable results with minimal side effects. "Whatever you're doing, keep doing it," his doctor told him—words that validate months of disciplined adherence to a metabolic approach targeting cancer's unique vulnerabilities.
This conversation goes beyond personal triumph to address the broader implications for cancer treatment. Dr. Hoffman, who has published hundreds of scientific papers since 1976, is documenting Joe's case for publication in the medical literature. Together, they're creating a blueprint for others while building a community of informed patients committed to fighting cancer intelligently. The episode highlights that successful treatment requires unwavering dedication and continuous learning—"You can never let up, not one inch," as Joe emphasizes. For anyone facing cancer or supporting someone who is, this compelling discussion demonstrates how knowledge, commitment, and scientific innovation can change outcomes and potentially transform the standard of care.
Intro for podcast
Here is the link for Sunday's 4 pm Pacific time Zoom meeting
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, joe Grumbine, and today, once again, we have Dr Robert Hoffman joining us. Robert, how are you doing today? I'm doing good, joe. How are you? I am fantastic.
Speaker 1:It's a great day to be alive and it's a great day to have a tumor smaller than it was yesterday. What do you think about that? So we've been walking down this road now for a few months and it's been quite a journey. We had some uphills and some downhills and some obstacles, and we're learning about science and changing paradigms, and this has become quite a robust conversation, wouldn't you say? Yeah, I think so. So the last time we started in on other things. This time I'd like to jump into the update and then we'll get into some other things.
Speaker 1:When we last spoke, I was getting ready to do my second session of chemotherapy and remember this is the chemotherapy that we presented to the medical oncologist not the, not the regimen that they had in mind, which was going to be a lot more toxic and include radiation, and fortunately we delivered it well enough that they accepted the notion and inside of it I had my one-two punch, and we've been working really hard on this diet and fasting and oxygen therapy, and the whole idea was that this thing was going to make the chemotherapy work extra good and give me reduced amount of side effects. And it's done exactly that. So Monday I went in and I and I I was right on my point I did my three-day fast. I've been taking extra methionine A's I said nothing for that cancer in preparation for this chemotherapy. I've been getting good sleep. I think that's a big factor in all this. My appetite's been strong in spite of the nausea side effects from the chemotherapy. I've really not needed only the smallest amount of cannabis a couple of times really is all I needed to knock that down. So Monday I go in.
Speaker 1:Well, friday I went in and got my blood work and I had talked to the doctor on Friday. That's when I had the Zoom meeting with the medical oncologist and she was so blown away. She just I mean her reaction. I wish I would have recorded it because it was just wide eyed and just smiling. She was so happy and you know, basically her response was whatever you're doing, keep doing it. And that was the response we had hoped for. And I asked her about getting these circulating tumor blood tests and she says no, that's really not in her wheelhouse to order. She just didn't see the. You know it wasn't something she was going to do, but she did order the virus load. This is a virus caused tumor. So there is a marker that shows the virus load in the bloodstream. That she believes is a better marker for this. And she said that because there was such a hassle with switching over the regimen and then the delay in the port that somehow that order got lost in the shuffle. So she reordered it and Monday when I went in to get the chemotherapy they took my blood for that test. So we're going to have a baseline marker. The last time it was taken was November, so we'll have a mark from November till now and then we'll begin that in my regular regimen.
Speaker 1:The good news is the chemotherapy, the precursor blood work, was on point. They said everything was in line. So I had been. I was low on magnesium and I've increased that medical food, the hominics, and that's pretty. It's got a pretty good, not just amino acids but it's got a pretty good spectrum of minerals and things in it too. So I've upped that to twice a day and I think it's helped balance keeping my protein levels good without bringing in the cysteine and methionine. So I'm really modulating this a lot and paying attention to everything that's going into my body and when, and all of that.
Speaker 1:I was able to maintain my weight this time. So when I got off the fast I was still in a healthy range and I got to tell you what was expected was a worse effect. Like right now I have a pump on and I have this port and it's pumping this five fluorosil into my body. At every 30 seconds or so it puts another little pump in there and I've got about well. I get it taken out on saturday. So the last time we did this I did the same round. I we did chemotherapy on monday. On tuesday or wednesday, I felt really good and I went out and overworked myself. Thursday I was beat. We didn't have. We ended up doing the podcast, I think the next day yeah time, um, it's been much better.
Speaker 1:I actually, the next morning I went on a hike. I said I'm just going to see what I can do. I, before I broke my fast, I said I'm going to just go walk up the hill and see how far I can get. And I got up to the top of the hill I watched the sunrise, walked back down. I was a little wobbly, I was real careful walks, but I carried my pump up there and everything and I said you know what, if I can do that, that that really puts me over over a hump. And, um, I've been really paying attention now. So I'm, I'm working, going outside, getting some things done. Then I feel a little quiet, go in and take a nap and I'm letting myself recover. I didn't.
Speaker 1:The nausea has been mild this time. I asked the doctor to cut back on the nausea medication that they put in the IV. They give it to you initially and I she, she cut it back to one of the two medicines and I didn't have the side effects of the constipation and the headache at all. So I was able once again to mitigate a little adjustment and I got almost no side effect from it.
Speaker 1:The fluorosil causes mouth ulcers and the last time it got me pretty good and the problem with that obviously is it makes it hard to eat and you got to eat. And the problem with that obviously is it makes it hard to eat and you got to eat, and so this time I preemptively started swishing my mouth with. I get this buffered saline solution and it really helps to keep it off, and I use the um, the glycerin, ozonated glycerin. I swish with that too, so so far my mouth is good. Um, I'm really I'm powering through this. This time I didn't, I didn't really have a down day and I, as you can see, the tumor has gotten. It's less than half of what it was and this is really much less. It's about down to a third, I think, of what it was, maybe even less than that.
Speaker 2:I think so.
Speaker 1:Been less than four weeks Right out, but I don't care. I think I look just fine and I couldn't care less. Anyways, I'd rather have a, no hair and a and no tumor than all the hair and a tumor. There you go. So I think that what I've been able to do with this now is my voice. People are noticing I, I, I'm, I'm strong. But the people aren't even listening to my me talking on the phone. They're like, wow, you sound great. And I says, well, you know, my strength is returning. My, my, I'm a long way from being done. I tell everybody, you know what? What people think is that you're looking better, so we're good. And you know as well as I do this is not over. It's actually never over for me now. But even the big battle, I can't let up one inch. You know if I give this thing an inch, it'll come back ferociously. You can never let up, never, never, and that's the lesson that people need to learn.
Speaker 1:I had a lady come over. You know now that people know that I'm getting ahead of this. People are coming around asking questions. More cancer patients are reaching out to me now and I'm sending them the link to the call on Sunday and I believe more and more people are going to start to pop in and get some understanding.
Speaker 1:You know, I talked to this one guy or this lady who came over a couple days ago and she said her son-in-law had I think it was. It was an internal cancer that was pretty bad, pancreatic I think it was one of the real ones you don't want and it was aggressive. It was stage four, metastasized, and the guy was doing what I was doing he cut the sugar out, cut the carbs out, and he's eating protein and he's down to a hundred pounds. And I'm like you can't. You got to get this guy to stop. And he had the same problem I had.
Speaker 1:I believed I was going to heal myself and he's like it's okay, god's going to heal me and I'm like you know what? That's not how it works. You got to do the work. You know you might get healed, but you got to do the work and you got to learn and you got to get smart. And I just told her. I said you know, I can tell you what I know, but he's got to accept it and you can't force it down his throat.
Speaker 1:I gave him, I gave her the contact. I gave her the contact I gave her. You know the basics. I told her about methionine, I told her about you, I told her about my experience, and you know that's really what I could do. But the thing that's great is, people are reaching out and I think that we're going to be able to take this case and use it, because it's undeniable. I sent you all those pictures. What'd you think about all that? Fantastic, you know. So what's your thoughts about? You know how we're writing up a case report now. I love that. So what does that mean?
Speaker 2:We're going to publish. We're going to publish your results. We want to wait a little more before we would like to, you know, see it shrink a bit more, but we already have a great result.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I'm continuing to take two pictures a day, so I have another file.
Speaker 2:Send them on to me, joe. I will, I will, and so we're going to publish it. The paper will be on PubMed.
Speaker 1:I love it. Everybody can read it. I love it, you know. That's where I wanted to go. Next, you know this. This is you. You have an instrumental role in this in two places. One is obviously your wealth of experience, and now you have this group of people that are that are utilizing the tools that you put out there and sharing their experiences, which is helping us all. But two, you're a professional in the industry and, whether everybody respects your work or not, you are in a league where you can publish these findings and they'll be peer reviewed, and I think that's powerful. And not only that, but you're doing it. How many papers have you published on this topic? A?
Speaker 2:few hundred. There you go. There you go First paper was 1976 on this topic, wow.
Speaker 1:And so you know that makes you one of the world's foremost scholars on this subject. I know there are other people that have done work before you and there's other people doing this work, but you're really you know they've named it the Hoffman effect for a reason, and you know this is. I'm actually really excited to be part of this, in this element, because, as horrible as You're a pioneer, joe yes, absolutely, you're a poster boy. Kuhn's book, you know, on scientific revolution not every pioneer mattered. People did, have done amazing work over the years and it never got seen. And this, I believe we have a chance to piggyback on top of all the other work you're doing and all these other case studies and I'm not going to be quiet about it, I'll take this to anybody who will hear me and I think we're going to be able to make a change with it. At least help you know, one at a time.
Speaker 2:One at a time is okay. Well, and it doesn't have to be another funeral Every time we get a serious patient Right, a patient that's going to really you know I'm not interested in these dilettantes that come in, they try it, they go away. Whatever that's a waste of methioninase yes, that are going to really really get into it, be diligent and also do tons of reading. That's the kind of patient I want.
Speaker 2:Exactly Well that's what I bring to the table. I wanted me to hire him to do a new website. I said no. I said our main website is PubMed. Oh, a lot of people don't understand PubMed. I say that's the point. I want the patients that can understand it. Yes, I want the intelligent patient that's going to really understand what they have to do to get better. I agree, and that's where I direct everybody. I don't waste my time on patients who don't get it.
Speaker 1:Well, not only that, even if they get it and they think they get it, there's a commitment that most people don't have Absolutely, and that's what I tell people.
Speaker 2:That's a really, really big thing. Without the commitment, they're wasting the methioninase, wasting our time and throwing away their life.
Speaker 1:And it's hard. I mean you know, but I tell people you know what else is hard.
Speaker 2:It's difficult and requires a high level of intelligence.
Speaker 1:It is All of it. All of it, and you know I'm confident that I'm doing the very best that I can and as I'm learning more, I'm adjusting as needed and I'm willing to make any adjustments that we got to do. My goal is to live a long and healthy life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we have to.
Speaker 1:we all have to learn, every day learn learn, learn Exactly, Exactly, and that's, I think that's one of the problems we get. That's what I had. One of my biggest problems was I knew too much. I knew already what I knew and I didn't want to hear anything else at first. And then, once I got hit with that, you know you have this disease. It changed everything. I says, well, I obviously didn't know what I thought I knew and I got to get start learning again and that's that's how I stumbled on. You was just reading, I was just learning and reading.
Speaker 2:You read the scientific papers, not some bullshit website.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And you know, I think it's important that and I tell people I go, if you're going to listen to anybody, you got to listen to somebody who's done it and you got to listen to information that's been reviewed, and then you have a place to start. And just because somebody's done it doesn't mean it's going to work for you. You just have to say, well, how did you get to where you're at? And that's where this group is so important, where everybody nobody has the same story, but we all have a lot in common and we're sharing the differences along with what's in common. And I think that's really powerful, because the thing we have in common is the knowledge of this diet, the knowledge of this enzyme, the knowledge of what it does, and then all the differences come out, all the different.
Speaker 1:You know, a lot of people have prostate cancer, so they have certain tests that they do, and then some people have, you know, fully metastasized aggressive cancers that they're going after. And you know, then we have Shahiro and myself, who have this great story of a tumor going away, and we have, you know, emil, dr Exime, and his amazing story of, four and a half years later, still here and fighting through it and you know these are just tools that you're not going to find in somebody's book and you're not going to find in some website that's telling you to buy an extract or a fruit or something, that's for sure. So when you're going along and you know you've written all these papers, is there, is there some kind of a I don't know some kind of a marker or something that you go ha, I know this is something that I need to write about. Like how do you know, as you're going along, that you've got the next thing to go after?
Speaker 2:Well, when we write up the clinical reports which we've written, 12 so far we choose the patients that have gotten a good result and we think that should be shared with the public, so we publish it. In science we do experiments. We try to learn more about methionine addiction. We try to learn more about how we can more effectively target it, kill the cancer cells better without hurting the normal cells, what we can combine with methioninase be it ivermectin, chloroquine, rapamycin, all kinds of interesting things. So we get a good result that we think adds to our knowledge or adds to our ability to help the patient we want to publish it.
Speaker 1:So I'm curious about. You know, I've always been a. I call myself a tinkerer. I formulate things and you know I work with natural formulas and I of course experiment on myself before I think I'm going to give anything to anybody else. And you know I always start with the safety first and work with ingredients that I know what they're going to do, and then we test it and see how effective they might be. But that's very unscientific really. I mean, it's just tinkering, I don't.
Speaker 2:Well, a lot of science is tinkering too, gathering information Exactly and trying to make sense out of it Exactly.
Speaker 1:And when you're working with things like herbals, there's so many compounds to them you can never really know what's doing what.
Speaker 2:No, but we can identify herbs that we think have helped patients, that's a good tool. We don't need to know every compound inside Exactly. If we identify an herb that's helping people with cancer, that's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. That's why I do it, and I don't try to necessarily understand every molecular mechanism. I observe what's happening.
Speaker 2:We can't do it Exactly Right now. The most important thing is to be practical Right Patients that need help yes and, uh, the standard therapy. For a lot of cancers you get the standard result right five-year survival 10. We don't want that. No, we've got to improve on that. Yes, so we start with the standard therapy and we improve it.
Speaker 1:Right Agreed, and you know there's two elements to this. Like like their standard therapy was going to be very detrimental to my long-term health the way they proposed it, and we came up with a standard therapy that met their standard of care, so they didn't reject it.
Speaker 2:It's a standard of care, right? Um, it's not an unstandard combination. Chemotherapy for squamous cell head and neck cancer is standard of care, right. There are options that your oncologist wanted to add radiation, right? Uh, the radiologist probably wouldn't care if there was chemo or not, he'd just do he, she do radiation. The surgeon just wanted to do surgery. Yep, you can still have radiation later if the chemo reaches a point where it can't shrink it anymore.
Speaker 2:We'll consider radiation Absolutely. We'll even possibly consider surgery, depending on how disfiguring it's going to be. But I think there's a good chance we won't have to go there. Why your tumor should stop shrinking. I don't think so I think it's going to keep shrinking.
Speaker 1:What she said was you know, initially there was a lot of inflammation that went down along with the tumor, so that the first, the first shrinking was so dramatic because there was a lot of inflammation. She said what's likely to happen as the tumor is getting to more massive area that's shrinking, that there's going to be necrotic tissue that'll take more time to dissipate. And she said you might come to a point where it seems like it's not really shrinking much, but it's just because your body takes longer to process that back into whatever.
Speaker 2:What's your well, um, I mean, you've shrunk so much already, I know, I mean what I think.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to keep going. I think it's just.
Speaker 2:I think so too.
Speaker 1:I looked at a picture that I took last year. I'm getting ready to go on my annual trip to the Sierras and last year about the same time, I looked at the picture and I'm pretty confident that I my tumor is smaller than it was last year at this time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's incredible.
Speaker 2:There's no reason to think it's not going to keep shrinking. Not at all, I'm confident it's going to.
Speaker 1:Just like Chihiro.
Speaker 2:We don't know this for sure, but it keeps shrinking. So why are we? Okay, keep going.
Speaker 1:Exactly that's where I'm at and I'm being more diligent with my regimen. I'm not backing off one ounce and you know, everybody that comes around says, oh, you're looking so great. I'm like, yeah, I'm staying'm staying on point and we'll keep on, keep on going.
Speaker 2:So I am. That's what we need to do, joe.
Speaker 1:Exactly Well. I'm excited to keep sharing this with you and looking forward to continuing. I'll send you over the next round of pictures.
Speaker 2:Please, it's a handful. My young student is so excited about writing up your case report.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Well, I'm excited to be sharing it. Hey Joe, I look forward to continuing.
Speaker 2:It's going to be available to the whole world.
Speaker 1:I love it. Well, we're changing a paradigm here and there will one day be a world where this is part of standard of care and people will understand it.
Speaker 2:It's an unstoppable force. Yes, it just has its own timeline.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Well, I'm here to push it forward. Thank you for being here, as always, robert, we'll see you. Thank you, joe.
Speaker 2:Thank you for being such a wonderful super patient that does everything I want every other patient to do. I just want to live a long, healthy life. Yeah, and you will, and so many other of the patients can do it too, if they follow your lead.
Speaker 1:Exactly. All right, Robert, we'll see you next time. Thank you for being here. Okay, we'll see you on Sunday, Joe. All right, take care.
Speaker 2:Okay.
