Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
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Healthy Living by Willow Creek Springs
The Science Behind Cancer's Weakness Can Save Your Life
What happens when you cut off cancer's food supply? Dr. Robert Hoffman has spent five decades studying this question, discovering that cancer cells are uniquely addicted to the amino acid methionine. His groundbreaking work with methioninase—an enzyme that breaks down this critical nutrient—is now transforming lives.
The journey to this breakthrough wasn't straightforward. After a devastating setback that nearly ended the project, researchers made a surprising discovery: methioninase could be effective when taken orally, a rare quality for enzyme treatments. This resilient bacterial enzyme survives stomach acid and digestive processes, allowing it to deplete methionine in the digestive system without harmful side effects.
We witness this science in action through host Joe Grumbine's remarkable personal cancer journey. Combining conventional chemotherapy with methionine restriction through diet and supplementation, Joe reports significant tumor shrinkage that has impressed his medical team. His quality of life has dramatically improved—better sleep, increased energy, stable weight, and renewed appetite—all signs pointing toward potential complete remission.
This episode illuminates the real process of scientific discovery: not just eureka moments, but persistence through setbacks, logical thinking, hard work, and sometimes a bit of luck. Dr. Hoffman emphasizes that even after achieving "no evaluable disease" status, maintenance therapy remains crucial to prevent recurrence, shifting our understanding from "beating" cancer once to managing it long-term.
For anyone facing a cancer diagnosis or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers both hope and practical direction. The weekly support meetings mentioned provide community knowledge and resources that complement medical treatment—because patients who actively engage with their healing process consistently achieve better outcomes than those taking a passive approach.
Ready to learn more about methionine restriction or connect with this supportive community? The link to weekly Sunday meetings is in the show notes, or reach out to Joe directly to join this paradigm-shifting approach to cancer care.
Intro for podcast
Here is the link for Sunday's 4 pm Pacific time Zoom meeting
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, joe Grumbine, and I have today with us Dr Robert Hoffman joining us. And, dr Robert, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing pretty good, joe, no complaints. Got some really good news from uh the doctor in japan. One of the uh breast cancer patients with uh very extensive metastasis is down to one metastasis now with right okay. So she, she's getting the work, she's getting chemo, she's getting immunotherapy, she's getting methioninase, uh, and she's getting radiation. Okay, and sometimes you got to go all the way, um what it takes you do what it takes exactly, and is that the one metastasis now, wow, and dr sato is, uh, very pleased, yes and um, well, we'll, we'll go from there.
Speaker 2:He just gave her a dose of radiation on some lymph node metastasis. It's very advanced breast cancer, but let's see.
Speaker 1:You know and that's just a testament to the things we've been talking about you know, there's not one answer for everybody.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, no, we dig in, it's so individualized.
Speaker 1:Joe, yes, and we have to be open-minded to whatever's going to work and it might not suit our fancy People come and say I'm not going to take chemo.
Speaker 2:Well, if you have advanced disease, that's the wrong decision. You're right.
Speaker 1:I was one of them when I first walked into this. That was my position and wow, look at what you saw.
Speaker 2:Whatever you did, the tumor kept growing Exactly Once we combine the chemo and the methioninase.
Speaker 1:It's just flying away Exactly. Well, we're going to get into my update in a little bit. I did want to get back into our conversation about you and your work and you know I like people to understand. People think they know how science works and they think they know how discoveries are made and they think they know how knowledge progresses. And I think most people are at very least under-informed, many times misinformed and most of the time just plain ignorant. And I think that if we can shed light on the actual process of things and the back and forth and the up and down and you know, just to understand how knowledge is gained and verified and validated, and that's how science actually happens. It doesn't just happen because a couple of scientists do a couple of things and whammo, we have a new discovery.
Speaker 1:You know, 50 years ago you became aware of the value of methioninase and its effect on cancer and the actual need that cancer cells have to reproduce and to divide and all the things that they do, their reliance on methionine.
Speaker 1:You came to that discovery and you've been working on resolving mechanisms and validating and proving this for the last 50 years and I want to kind of understand a little bit about these processes.
Speaker 1:You know you share with me papers that you've written and co-authored and studies that have been done and these experiments, and I want to understand for myself a little bit about your process of you know how do you go about. You know you just you're trying to prove how this works. You're trying to understand how these cancer cells work and and how that we can affect them, how these cancer cells work and how that we can affect them, and to even prove that this enzyme restricts this amino acid that the cancer needs, and to actually say, well, that had an effect. And we have to be able to prove it in such a way that we can replicate it, that we can see the same thing over and over again and see it in an animal, see it in a human, see it in vitro, see it in all these different ways. Maybe share a little bit about that process.
Speaker 2:Okay, Joe. So let me tell you a little bit about our experience developing methioninase. Maybe that's a good example.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So we're not the inventor of methioninase, but we developed it all the way to the clinic. Let's see 25 years, just that. And there was a huge gap. So we were developing methioninase. This is just telling you how science works up and down. We were developing it, we were testing it in mice. The mice had tumors oh boy, we had good effect. We would combine the methioninase with chemo. We would get a better effect on the tumors in the mice for years and years.
Speaker 2:And we even put it in humans in the late 90s, mid-90s, mid-late 90s on a one-shot deal. And we found, wow, we could just deplete the patient of methionine. Woo, good, these were late-stage cancer patients across the border in Tijuana, working with my colleague, dr Zavala. Well then we worked with a Japanese company and tried to test the methioninase in monkeys. They didn't have cancer, it was a safety test. And we killed a monkey, and that was very sad. This was using methioninase as an injectable and we killed a monkey, and that was very sad. This was using methioninase as an injectable and for about 15 years we almost gave up the project.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Over a monkey. What are we going to do? We knew we could modify the methioninase. The monkey died from what's called anaphylaxis, a severe allergic reaction. When you repeatedly dose the animal intravenously and remember that the origin of this methioninase is from bacteria, so it's a very foreign enzyme. The body sees that as ooh, what's coming in me?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So we were very for 15 years. We were really down in the dumps. And then Dr Han and Dr Kawaguchi in the lab. They didn't even tell me. They said they started giving the mice methionine, by mouth methionase.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:And it worked. It worked just as well as when you injected it IV.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Holy moly, that's rare, especially for an amoeba. Yeah, and so that changed everything, Joe.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We were on a roll and within two years we were giving patients the methioninase by mouth and we had. You know we didn't see miracles, but we had a lot of good results and we published about 12 of them.
Speaker 1:And you didn't have any negative effects, though Did you have anybody with it?
Speaker 2:No, We've given methioninase to about 340 patients. Not one complaint of a negative effect, not one.
Speaker 1:I agree, I don't have any.
Speaker 2:It's totally this. I can say it's totally safe because it stays in the digestive system. It breaks down the methionine that comes in food you eat, even the low methionine food, and it breaks down methionine that sometimes circulates back into the digestive system. That's made by the body but no side effects. So I can say that. So science involves trying to think logically, design a good experiment that will answer the very specific question you want to answer get data. Answer a very specific question. You want to answer get data. Science also involves hanging in there when it's tough going, like we did for 15 years, and it involves luck. And you know Dr Hahn and Dr Kawaguchi had a great idea, but they were also lucky that this particular enzyme, the gene of which comes from this very tough soil bacterium it's called Pseudomonas pudida. This bacterium is one heck of a tough guy. It can survive high temperatures, acidity.
Speaker 1:It can survive the conditions in the stomach and in the gut, the stomach has ph of I don't know, very low yeah, yeah, the proteins that you eat right in your hamburger or whatever, and it but it.
Speaker 2:And you can't give insulin by mouth. Oh no, it would.
Speaker 2:It would just be chopped up right but methionin, the pseudomonas, methioninase, if I could call it. That, is one heck of a tough guy and it survives the acidity of the stomach. It survives all these so-called proteolytic enzymes that break down proteins. Methionin is a typical protein. It doesn't break it down because it's so tough. So science is good thinking, logical thinking and design of the experiments. Hard work to do the experiments, sometimes night and day, and when things aren't going your way. You got to hang in there if you really believe in what you do, and we hung in there for 15 years. And it involves luck. It's a human endeavor.
Speaker 1:Right, right Agreed.
Speaker 2:Agreed and so. And scientists are all kinds of different people Smart some, Some not so smart, Some hardworking, Some not so hardworking, some dedicated, some not so dedicated. It's the same group of humans. Some are crooks, unfortunately steal each other's stuff, but those are the minority. The majority are good people.
Speaker 1:I think, like most things, I think if you take any cross-section of humanity, you'll find a similar breakdown. That's right. Well, I think that's a great perspective and point of view. I think, you know, every once in a while, a discovery is made that somebody just stumbles upon a thing, and that happens regularly enough because people are.
Speaker 2:Sometimes people call it serendipity.
Speaker 1:It's total luck, yeah, and you know what Good on them If you stumble into something good.
Speaker 2:Whatever you get, it's good Exactly the good luck is not so common, but hey, if you get it, you take it.
Speaker 1:Exactly exactly. And it's interesting because sometimes you stumble on a discovery and you get sort of a big picture understanding of something. You don't really understand it, but you can observe it and sometimes you don't understand it at all Exactly.
Speaker 2:It takes another 40 years for you to figure out the results of your own experiment. Absolutely, absolutely, and I think this is important. We made this discovery of methionine addiction in 1976. Right, and I really didn't see the real ramifications of it until these guys in Singapore published a similar experiment 43 years later.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow.
Speaker 2:I said, holy, you know what? We've got something back in 76.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love it, I love it. Well, I got to tell you I couldn't be happier that you made those discoveries because I am confident that my now understanding of this and my changing in my diet and adding that methionine is instrumental in the results that I've gotten. It's not the only thing that caused them, but it certainly had a big impact and I'm confident of that and I'm very grateful that you're our poster boy show. Oh you bet, and I sing loudly to this. So I do want to give an update. So when we last spoke, I had made some remarkable progress and that has continued.
Speaker 1:This tumor has continued to shrink. I can I can actually feel it shrinking sometimes as it was going the other direction. It was hurting and stretching and popping and pushing on nerves and now I feel it retracting and there's almost like that itchy, cramping feeling of when you're getting better, when a muscle injury starts to heal. It's almost like that. Every once in a while I feel it's like stretching and I know it's falling back into place. And I had a meeting with the nurse practitioner that oversees the chemotherapy and I did a video conference with her and when she saw me, her eyes got big and her smile got big and she said whoa, really, oh my God, yeah, she was just blown away. And she says what happened to you? I says it's working and I took your advice. I didn't go talking about all the things I did, I just said it's working.
Speaker 2:No, be the mystery man. I just said it's working, and no be the mystery man.
Speaker 1:I just said it's working. And and I says I says everything that we're doing is working. And she says it's the chemotherapy. I go you bet. I said it's working, that's all I care about. And I told her. I said you know, um, I, I've been able to uh, to not have to take the nausea medicine. I said I've got a little nauseous, but the side effects from that was just untenable. I don't want to be constipated and I don't want headaches. I'd rather be a little seasick, as long as I can eat. And I said you know, I took a little cannabis and it helped calm me down. I don't even need to do that anymore. I got it under control. My appetite's great.
Speaker 1:What happens is you get this cascade of problems. So this thing was pushing on my throat, it was raising my heart pressure, my blood pressure, pushing on my artery, it was causing me pain. So I wasn't sleeping Well, you don't sleep. All of a sudden, everything starts going out of whack. And my appetite wasn't great because I wasn't sleeping. Everything was just out of whack. The second it started to shrink. The first thing that started to happen was I started to sleep. The second, I got some sleep. All of a sudden, everything starts to shift. My energy level started to raise up. I started moving around more, I started walking, I started getting a little bit of exercise. Next thing I know I get a little more hungry and I'm staying tight on my diet. I've increased the methionine A's. Joe, you're going to have to continue on that indefinitely. Oh, you bet I don't.
Speaker 2:That's like I said, said whatever it may be forever.
Speaker 1:I don't know, it may be. Whatever it is, if that's the price I gotta pay, I'll pay it every day. That's an easy price to pay. Anyways, I'm gaining strength. I'm gaining, gaining an appetite. So I'm eating more vegetables and eating more, a lot of fruit and, you know, doing my thing right and, um, getting stronger, gaining a little bit of weight. I had lost a bunch of weight because I fasted before the chemo and then I didn't have any appetite for a while and I got below what I wanted to. So I've been pushing, eating better and just keeping it straight, and I got back up to my weight that I want to be at, which is still real low, but it's manageable and I'm keeping my energy level. Everything's good. So that was a big change.
Speaker 1:And you know, one of the side effects from one of the drugs is it can make some ulcers in your mouth. It goes after the membranes and I said, well, I got baking soda brushing my teeth with that and that alkalizes the membrane, keeps that from happening. And I got this saline, buffered saline solution, rinsing my mouth out with that and in a couple of days it cleared it up as long as I was able to, you know not have a raw mouth. I can eat and my appetite kept getting better. So I've just been eating my cucumbers and apples and salads and Fantastic Pias and strawberries, and you know, just going at it, and I eat my little bit of beans and rice and potatoes and take my enzyme and I'm taking that medical food, that hominix, that two, three times a day. So I get fantastic. I get nutrients with no methionine, no cysteine and, um, it's working. And you know the only real negative side effect, as you can see, you're getting, I'm getting more forehead and uh, I don't see that at all I couldn't care less.
Speaker 1:I told my wife, I go, I'm gonna get me a few hats and we're just gonna ride through this. Who cares never die.
Speaker 2:You know, high forehead means high iq yeah there you go.
Speaker 1:I'm getting smarter as the day goes by. There you go and you know what's happening is. Today I had a meeting with the medical oncologist In person. Or Zoom, no Zoom, and I did the same thing. She, her eyes got so big.
Speaker 1:Now, remember, holy moly, yeah, remember, she's the one that originally was not really interested in anything. She wanted the radiation, chemo radiation, chemo radiation. You were going to get both. Yeah, that's what she wanted, and it was going to be a lot of radiation. And I wasn't getting it cleared. This thing was getting worse and worse. That's when we came up with this plan. I offered it to her and it made sense. It fit in her guidelines of first-line therapies and she agreed to it. And the second, she agreed to it. That's when everything shifted and she realized that I'm doing my work. I'm not trying to fight her, I am trying to solve this problem. And it was urgent. And she was willing to change her protocol. She submitted it. Give it to change her protocol. She submitted it. Give it back to Joe, yes. And so today she was just tickled. She was so happy and she said you know, that's the first time she said we might be able to take this thing down to zero with this, and I said we're going to do whatever it takes.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what happened to Ms Ozumi. I know that I think so, joe. I think so. This and I said we're going to do whatever it takes. That's what happened to miss ozumi. I know that I think so, joe. I think so. But keep this in mind for future. If we're going to get down to zero, I want you to do what Ms Hozumi is doing Negotiate with your medical oncologist. What you're taking now is really called induction chemo. Right, you know the induction period, getting rid of the damn thing Right. But after that, when it looks like zero, I want her to put you on some other. Chemo for maintenance. Okay, maintenance chemo for maintenance. Okay, maintenance chemo Fair enough. Long term, years and years, that's fine. So this thing never, ever comes back.
Speaker 1:I would totally. I will propose that to her. Not yet.
Speaker 2:We're going to go down to zero first. Yeah absolutely, and I love the way she said that because I also think so.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love the way she said that, because I also think so, yes, and so that's my hope is that I can manage the chemo because there's not going to be a long-term side effect.
Speaker 2:You know, and chemo, if you do things right, like you, fast around it and stuff, it ain't that bad. Everybody's so terrified of chemo. Oh, chemo, it's not so bad If you just do a few things like fasting and follow dr exome.
Speaker 1:It's okay, I'm doing it all and and I, I, if, if. It's here's the thing. When I did that first round, I was at the weakest point in my life and I and I survived it, and now I'm 10 times stronger than I was that first time. I suspect Monday, when I go in, I'm going to have a much better recovery period and I'm going at it the same way. I'm beginning my fast tomorrow. I'm eating my last good meal. Tonight. I'm doing a fasting mimicking. I'm not going a straight fast because I it's okay exome does too.
Speaker 1:I think I'm just going zero methionine and I'm, I'm, I'm doubling, still doubling up. The methionine is. That's my biggest thing is that cancer gets no methionine for the next three days, not any, and so that that's gonna that's my really good plus I'm doing the oxygen therapy and and all, the all the other things I'm doing that just help give me strength and uh, hey, listen it's whatever works.
Speaker 2:Yes, you're doing good, I wouldn't change anything.
Speaker 1:I'm not exactly, and that's what she said. She goes. You just keep doing what you're'm not exactly and that's what she said she goes you just keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 2:I says you know, that's what they say. The open-minded doc who doesn't really want to know what you're doing but but is so happy with the result, just says keep doing what you're doing. That's what the doctor was telling the parents of one of our little girls with brain cancer she was doing. Good. The doc would say, hey, whatever you're doing yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:And that's what really makes me feel good that I've got a team that supports my health. It's not. They don't have their agenda. And I asked her about um getting the circulating tumor cell test and she says I can't really approve that. That doesn't. There's not really evidence that's going to do what I need. But she did. Dr Castro will probably approve it, I agree.
Speaker 1:But she also said she did order, I think. So she did order another test that's going to show some markers and she had ordered it previously. But remember they changed the whole protocol and she said that got lost in the in the in the. It's okay, she said, but she's ordering it. So prior to monday when I do my chemo, they're going to pull that first test. So she goes. We have a test from back in november when we did the, when we did the last ct scan, and we're going to have one now. So she says we're going to follow that along and she's going to do. She's going to order a scan about three weeks after my third round and we're going to be able to yeah, everything we talked about.
Speaker 1:And and I asked her I go, are we going to be able to do a scan after this? She goes, yep, she goes. Let's wait until the third round. Give it a couple three weeks afterward, and then we'll do the next scan. So we're on point.
Speaker 2:Okay, and if you're what they call NED no evaluable disease NED then you're going to tell her I want maintenance chemo, I want it A hundred percent, you bet I'm right there.
Speaker 1:This port is good for 50 years.
Speaker 2:Because, Joe, even when you're NED by all the scans, the chances are 99.999% you still got a bunch of cancer cells in there and we've got to keep them sleeping.
Speaker 1:I understand. I'm right there with you. I've seen it happen. You know, in all this experience that I have with cancer patients, I've watched exactly what you're talking about. They go all the way into remission. They go back to their life and then boom, a week, a month, a year, year, two years, five years later it comes back, and it usually comes back. Go back to the old life.
Speaker 2:You gotta keep with the cancer life. You keep this thing from coming back.
Speaker 1:The old life is over I understand and I'm right there. I embrace the new life. I I welcome my new me all day long.
Speaker 2:I I'm a better me for it and, uh, I I'd rather live a long inspiration is you know that lady that came on late on the zoom? Oh, I get all these different theories. Yeah, I, I wish she would have come on and seen you but okay whatever well, you know what?
Speaker 1:you never know people. People hear a thing and they come back. I, I got a lady, yeah yeah you know, yesterday and her son was just diagnosed with non-hodgkin's lymphoma and she's right now her. A lady contacted me yesterday. Okay, boy, she needs to get on the zoom, that's it, and so we're. We're playing phone tag. I haven't had a chance to consult with her yet, but that's exactly what's going to happen. I'm going to send her everything and hopefully bring her on Sunday's call.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, you know, bring the horse to the water Every time, every time.
Speaker 1:So I just know that you know, this experience that I'm going through has turned out to be a gift, and I've gotten a gift of understanding of how people can help themselves. I'm demonstrating it, I, I. I took photographs twice a day for the past two months, so I have a whole show.
Speaker 2:I want you to share those with me. I want to write up your as you, as a case report.
Speaker 1:I will send you a. It's a document that has all the pictures in it.
Speaker 2:Okay, From the big baseball on down.
Speaker 1:All the way, it's just a whole series of pictures, okay.
Speaker 2:That's what I want, Joe. It's going to be a beautiful case report. Of course, we won't use your name and we'll put something over your eyes. I don't care.
Speaker 1:You can use me if you want. It doesn't matter, I'm an open book. Okay, joe, I gladly help. You're going to help millions of people. I know that, and I'm glad to share everything we're doing. I'm here. I want as many people to benefit as can.
Speaker 2:That's what they're going to Joe. All these people say I get all these theories. I'm overwhelmed. Hey, take a look at Joe, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I'll share my story with anybody that'll listen. Okay, you and Chihiro. You know, you bet she's my inspiration when I saw what happened to her.
Speaker 2:I said I want that You're going to be a lot of other people's inspiration. I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, between Shahiro and Dr Exime, those two have just been really– I tell you, dr Exime is an angel from heaven, I mean.
Speaker 1:I talk to him regularly. I talk to him probably more than I talk to you. Wow, I call him up in the morning he is such a genius. Yes.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, and so kind and shares everything. Yes, yes, oh my God, and so kind and shares everything. Yes, and you know he's almost starting year five now. I know he was given a year four years ago and here he is, he's just staying ahead of it. I love it With his brain, with his dedication, with his motivation, with his great enthusiasm to learn. Yes, and you know, that's the way it is, joe the cancer patient who just sits there and is passive about everything and doesn't want to learn. They ain't going to make it. No, you've got to give it everything you've got. You've got to take it into your own hands. You've got to be so positive.
Speaker 1:Yes, 100%. I've been able to share some really you know day-to-day stuff with him and he always takes my call or he gets back to me and he's given me just amazing advice on getting the labs.
Speaker 2:And just you know. He gave me the information. He was a practicing surgeon for 35 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have no doubt he knows everything. Yeah, he does. He knows his science. He knows, I mean, his understanding of the things he shares with me. I understand at a very rudimentary level and he's just breaking it down molecularly.
Speaker 2:I love it. He breaks it down so everybody can understand it. Absolutely, it's not. It's all his stuff is understandable. Absolutely, it's not. It's all this stuff is understandable.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, the thing that's so great is on Sunday at four o'clock Pacific time every week, this whole group of people gets together and shares their thoughts and ideas.
Speaker 2:And it's just, in my opinion, one of the most valuable tools out there is this think tank of people, and new people come, old people come, people that have been, people that hang in there week after week. They do better. Yes, you know the one-timers.
Speaker 1:Nope, you're going to get what you get. No, no, I haven't missed a week. Even if I wasn't feeling I was in bad shape a couple of weeks, I still showed up.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I shared what I can all the goodies yeah, all of it, all of it. So it's, it's powerful and, to anybody who's listening, the link is in the show notes um, contact me, I'm easy to reach and, uh, if you want to learn about, uh, this thing that I'm doing with this diet and methionine is Dr Hoffman is available. He, he is been a godsend, a wealth of information and resources and just so glad to be a part of this.
Speaker 2:We're glad you'll be part of it too, joe.
Speaker 1:We're a team.
Speaker 2:We're a team, we're moving, we're shifting that paradigm.
Speaker 1:Yes, we are, and I'm going to keep on going until we get it done. Okay, all right, robert. Well, thank you so much for joining us again.
Speaker 2:We'll see you on Sunday. My pleasure, Joe.
Speaker 1:I look forward to the next one. You bet All right everybody.
Speaker 2:And we'll see you on Sunday.
Speaker 1:Yes, next Sunday, all right.
Speaker 2:Bye Joe and bye all the podcasters.
